Tempe Oral History Project

Narrator: BILL KAJIKAWA
Interviewer: MARK PRY
Date of Interview: May 25, 1995
Interview Number: OH - 147

Bill Kajikawa was born in Oxnard, California, and moved to Phoenix with his family in 1929. He attended Phoenix Union High School and won nine varsity letters. He played football as a student at Arizona State Teachers College, 1933-1936, and graduated with a degree in education in 1937. He them joined the ASTC coaching staff and served as assistant professor of Men's Physical Education. During World War II, he enlisted as a member of the 442nd Regimental Combat Team under the 100th Infantry Battalion, the all-Japanese-American battalion that became the most decorated American unit during the war. After the war, he returned to Arizona State College and, in 1948, earned his Master's degree. From 1948 to 1957, he served as the school's head basketball coach, and was also head baseball coach for several years. About 1958, he became assistant to head football coach Frank Kush, and served as the Freshman football coach. He retired from coaching in 1978.

In this interview he talks about his experiences as a student and football player at Arizona State Teachers College in the 1930s, his forty-year teaching career at ASU, and the many changes to the game of football over the past 60 years..

FULL TEXT TRANSCRIPT

Copyright © 1998 Tempe Historical Museum

BEGIN SIDE ONE

PRY: Probably the easiest way to start is if you could tell me what years you played, both high school and college ball. You played at Phoenix Union, is that right?

KAJIKAWA: Phoenix Union.

PRY: Did you grow up in Phoenix?

KAJIKAWA: No, my parents moved to Arizona in 1929, and that's when, I think we only had one road through to come here through Yuma. And it was a gravel road, wasn't paved. Came over in a Model "T."

PRY: From California?

KAJIKAWA: California.

PRY: So then you went to Phoenix Union for what, just a year or two?

KAJIKAWA: No, I went there four years.

PRY: So '29 through '33?

KAJIKAWA: Through '33.

PRY: And then you went straight to. . . .

KAJIKAWA: From there I came here, to Arizona State Teachers College.

PRY: Un huh. And you played for _____.

KAJIKAWA: Of course we had freshman rules, so we couldn't play the freshman year. So I played freshman ball, and the coach of the freshman team was then Norris Steverson. And Coach [Rudy] Lavik was the football coach. It so happened -- this is a point of interest, possibly -- is that Dr. Gammage, who was the president of NAU, and he came down and became the president of Arizona State Teachers College, Tempe. At the same time, he brought Coach Lavik. And this is just a coincidence -- I was a freshman the same year that Coach Lavik and Dr. Gammage came to Arizona State.

PRY: So you played on the freshman team for one year, and then did you play junior varsity after that, or did you go straight to the varsity?

KAJIKAWA: No. Well, we didn't have a junior varsity. Then you just went to varsity.

PRY: Oh, I see. Did you play three years?

KAJIKAWA: Yes, three years.

PRY: So you played '34, '5, and '6?

KAJIKAWA: Six, right.

PRY: Six was your last year?

KAJIKAWA: Right. Class of '37, but the team was '36.

PRY: Now . . . . Then you coached after that, right?

KAJIKAWA: Yes.

PRY: Did you start coaching right after you finished?

KAJIKAWA: Right, yes, in the fall.

PRY: And your whole coaching career was spent at Arizona State?

KAJIKAWA: Arizona State. That's the only job I ever had.

PRY: Did you coach football only, or were there any other sports?

KAJIKAWA: Yes, I eventually coached football and basketball and baseball.

PRY: Okay. As an assistant in every. . . .

KAJIKAWA: Well, I was. . . I had the freshman team in basketball. Coach Lavik retired, then he selected me as the head basketball coach. So I coached basketball for a few years. And baseball, it was after the war, and they were going to disband it, just drop baseball, because they didn't have anyone to coach it. So I kind of volunteered, said, "Well, I'll take it and keep it going." We didn't have much of a budget. We didn't do any recruiting, so we just took the boys that wanted to play. So I had that for a while.

PRY: When were you coaching the basketball team?

KAJIKAWA: Basketball? About from '49 to '57, '58. Around ten years, somewhere around there -- probably short a year or so. And baseball, I had a few years. But then there was a conflict of football, and we had spring basketball. Then you had baseball in the spring, so it was kind of a conflict there. Finally I gave up baseball and I had basketball; I had freshman football for quite a few years. And then when we dropped freshman football, I became eligible, then I worked what was known as J.V., or -- yes J.V., I guess. We did have a few upperclassmen playing, but mostly freshmen, kind of in between, mixed. And then soon we dropped that J.V. and I helped with the varsity -- worked mainly with the offensive line, the guards. And we used to do a lot of trapping. In almost every play, we trapped with the guards, tackled mostly the guards, going both ways, trapping, trapping. That was my assignment.

PRY: So, now, did you coach . . . were you coaching football all along?

KAJIKAWA: Yes, all the way.

PRY: So then, at some point you coached both basketball and football at the same time, and baseball and football?

KAJIKAWA: Right.

PRY: But eventually, I guess football just began to take more of your time, so you went to full-time.

KAJIKAWA: Right. There for a while I had football and basketball and baseball at the same time.

PRY: Whoa! That must have been a lot of work.

KAJIKAWA: And then two classes in between.

PRY: So you taught P.E. classes?

KAJIKAWA: Right.

PRY: When did you retire?

KAJIKAWA: I retired in '78, and then Coach Kush asked me to help another year, '78, and I said, "Well, perhaps I should retire." And he said, "Well, help us do a little P.R. around the state." I was doing that when we had that blow-up, you remember, in '79. So actually, '79 was my last season, but I did retire from Physical Education in '78. And there's the. . . . They had a little testimonial banquet, and that was all the people that were there signed that.

PRY: Oh, that's neat. That's a nice _______.

KAJIKAWA: Kind of unique, isn't it?

PRY: Yeah, it is. Well, okay, so let's go back to when you played at Arizona State College as a player. Now, I notice from looking at the book that you weighed 140 pounds then.

KAJIKAWA: Well, I think I weighed a little more than that, about 145.

PRY: You were still a small player.

KAJIKAWA: Right. But if you look back, players weren't very large almost in any position. If you were a 200-pounder, that was pretty good-sized. Of course today you probably couldn't get a uniform. But if you're 200 -- and a LOT of the outstanding players across the country, the so-called half-back, the one that carried the ball, it was uncommon to see boys '45, '50, '55, or '60, 160, '65. Even linemen, they weren't. . . . Unless it was like Southern Cal or Notre Dame.

PRY: They were known for their big teams?

KAJIKAWA: Right. They still had some big boys, but they're bigger today.

PRY: Yeah. Well, how did you end up playing football at college? When you were in high school, did you expect to play college football?

KAJIKAWA: Well, no, I don't think I expected, although, as we said a little while ago, the personnel weren't real large then. Today, if you were 145, you wouldn't have much of a chance.

PRY: Yeah, I know.

KAJIKAWA: But in our days, '45 wasn't out of the track where you might have an opportunity to play -- '45, '50 -- like Haskell [Henshaw] was only '50, '55, somewhere around there.

PRY: You were a running back, right?

KAJIKAWA: Right.

PRY: How did you get recruited? Were you recruited?

KAJIKAWA: Well, that's a funny thing. They weren't doing very well, so I remember the student body president, Vern Tuckey, and the captain of the football team, and a few others on the team got together and said, "Gosh, we've got to help the team." And they went out and started recruiting some boys.

PRY: All locally, though, right?

KAJIKAWA: Locally. They didn't go out of state. So they would go around, especially around the valleys in Phoenix or Mesa, places like that, and try to select boys that had a pretty good record in high school, "You should come." So we had a pretty good freshman team that one year, like quite a few so-called "all-state." All-state in that era, why, we didn't have the classification of 5-A's and 4-A's. And now you have 5-A all state, 4-A. . . . In those days, we only had one, you see, and you could make it from Peoria, or you could make it from Buckeye. In fact, when I came here, there were two all-states from Buckeye. Or Miami, places like that. But they had to be quite outstanding.

PRY: Were you all-state by any chance?

KAJIKAWA: Yes, I was all-state two years in a row.

PRY: Your junior and senior years?

KAJIKAWA: Junior and senior.

PRY: So they knew about you and they came?

KAJIKAWA: Yes.

PRY: What did they do? "Will you come. . . ? They asked you to come to Arizona State?

KAJIKAWA: Right. They probably said, "Well, we have this fellow coming, this fellow." We may know of them or may not, but it sounded good, trying to assemble some good players. And we had some pretty good players.

PRY: Now, did you get a scholarship?

KAJIKAWA: Yes, we received a scholarship. It was a work scholarship, so you had to work.

PRY: What did you do?

KAJIKAWA: Averaged three hours a day, or you worked a hour each day and the weekend you made up the other part. And usually, theoretically, each hour you worked, it was good enough for a meal. And so you work three hours, you get three meals. And your room and board, during our time was $21.50.

PRY: That's a good reasonable price.

KAJIKAWA: Yes. We probably got the room free. (chuckles)

PRY: So what did you do?

KAJIKAWA: Well, we had odd jobs. We weren't the only ones. I'll bet over half of the students were working. Those were so-called Depression days. You remember? Twenty-nine. Work wasn't available, money was tight, and most parents couldn't send their youngsters to school. So. . . . Oh, quite a few, not only athletes, but others -- they ALL worked. And the school was very nice . . . the ______ was very nice about it, and gave all kinds of jobs -- for instance, like janitorial work, you swept up. Instead of hiring people to do it, they gave it to the students. And we had a dining hall, and most of the people worked in the dining hall, doing different things. They may wash dishes, or they may serve the food, or clean up, or many kinds. And then, well, in the dormitories, they'd clean up the dormitories and scrub it down -- just all kinds of jobs. And some of them were assigned. I was with the carpenters for a while on the weekends. I would help the carpenters, or I may help the gardener, I may help the plumber. I wasn't the only one, it was just athletes and NON-athletes. It was just all the same.

PRY: So, I suppose with the Depression going on, you felt pretty lucky, I guess.

KAJIKAWA: Oh, yes! Very fortunate. Other than that, it would be. . . . You know, people had doctors, and they'd be able to send their youngsters to school. But there were many kinds of work where people, where the parents were making money, but during Depression, they may not have made the money. They were out of a job as well. See, it was a hard time. So during that period, you didn't find very many doctors and lawyers and people of that profession, because they couldn't send 'em TO the school.

PRY: Well, I guess there was some talk during the Depression of not only closing the football program, but the whole school.

KAJIKAWA: Yes. But speaking of education, that was sort of a must. I think if you were a teacher, you had a fair chance. You know, if you had a job and you had a paycheck once a month instead of every two weeks, but the money was pretty steady. But in the mines, I understand they paid off in scripts, just a piece of paper like IOU. It wasn't legal tender. You couldn't go anyplace and cash it, but they would cash it at the company store, I understand, and they would take a few dollars interest in order to cash it. But at least you had pay. There were many other kinds of work -- they were out of work and they didn't even HAVE pay.

PRY: So is that what you thought you'd do after you got done, is that you'd be a teacher?

KAJIKAWA: Well, I think basically our school was a teacher's college.

PRY: Right.

KAJIKAWA: Practically everyone came with the idea of becoming a teacher. Some of us didn't -- we just came because that was probably the only thing we could do, we couldn't find a job.

PRY: Yeah.

KAJIKAWA: You see? So we came to school instead of standing on a corner looking for a job -- which was a good opportunity, and if it wasn't for sports, we wouldn't have had THAT opportunity probably.

PRY: Yeah.

KAJIKAWA: There were some students [who] came, just took a chance, and washed dishes or served, waited on tables -- anything on the campus. And almost everything on the campus was done by students. They had, say, like a carpenter. They probably had just one, see, to supervise, and all his help were probably students.

PRY: Hm, that's interesting.

KAJIKAWA: And the same thing with other lines of work.

PRY: So you played football the whole time you were there. What were the football facilities like at the time?

KAJIKAWA: Well. . . .

PRY: It was a stadium, right?

KAJIKAWA: (chuckles) It was a very sparse stadium. When we first started, the stadium was on what is known as Irish Field. That's where the Student Union is now. (PRY: Okay.) And there were just wooden bleachers. And I think you saw a picture of their press box -- just a small place where they might house, what, four or five or six people in there.

PRY: And it had lights, though, didn't it, by the time you got there?

KAJIKAWA: Yes, we had lights, but I think they were regular, like telephone poles. They weren't very GOOD lights, you see -- they didn't have the power. But it was one of the early lights, I think, in the state. Phoenix Union, when we had the Phoenix Union Montgomery Stadium, it was probably the best stadium in the state, because we didn't have one here, a stadium. Arizona didn't have a stadium. And see we still hold a little over 10,000 which was a pretty big capacity. And we used to play before a full house at Phoenix Union.

PRY: At Phoenix Union, right. How many people could the Irish grandstands hold?

KAJIKAWA: Very few. I'd hate to say. (laughs)

PRY: So you didn't get very large crowds?

KAJIKAWA: Oh, no.

PRY: How many of your games did you play at night?

KAJIKAWA: Well, we played, I think all the home games were at night -- most of them, yes. Of course, our weather was such that it almost demanded we play at night, because the daytime was too warm at least half of the season.

PRY: Right.

KAJIKAWA: Like in our big stadium we played at night, and most of the country played daytime. So they had good coverage, publicity-wise, and scores, you see. We played at night, and we may not be through, what, until ten, eleven o'clock, and it's too late to get the scores, probably.

PRY: Yeah, that's a good point.

KAJIKAWA: At a part of the country. So they didn't even know we existed.

PRY: That's interesting. I hadn't thought about that. Well, did you. . . ? What was it like to play college football in the '30s? Obviously, it was different than it is today.

KAJIKAWA: Well, I don't know how to answer that. Of course playing in our days, say in the early '30s, and continue and watching the progress, why, you can have something to say, a comparison. But if I just played during my period of the '30s, and wasn't associated with football, there'd be no way to make any comparison. So those days we thought it was the greatest!

PRY: Now, you played both ways, right? [i.e., both offensive and defensive]

KAJIKAWA: Right.

PRY: Everybody did?

KAJIKAWA: Everyone.

PRY: So how big was the team? It must have been fairly. . . .

KAJIKAWA: Well, I would say about 35, 40 or so, because you didn't need any more. Of course, you went to a large school like S.C. or Notre Dame, they probably had large squads. A lot of 'em probably didn't play, or they had J.V. teams, or they had their freshmen teams, and they probably would play against, like, junior colleges. There were quite a few junior colleges on the coast.

PRY: Right.

KAJIKAWA: But here, in our days, I think they were Phoenix College, Phoenix. I don't know whether Eastern Arizona had -- they may have had a team then or not. But, see, Phoenix College was about the only junior college -- there weren't very many.

PRY: Yeah, that IS the only one.

KAJIKAWA: So it's hard to compare. Since I've watched it, I could say, yes, there's quite a difference. But if you played in this era and went into another field, and then followed the football, you would have no way to make any comparison.

PRY: Yeah, that's a good point. Well, how important was football to the college at the time?

KAJIKAWA: Well, I don't think it was that much emphasis.

PRY: You said you had small crowds at the games.

KAJIKAWA: Yes. Well, I don't know whether this is the right answer or not, but we didn't have the population, either.

PRY: Right. Do you recall, roughly, how many students were (KAJIKAWA: At our school?) when you were in high school.

KAJIKAWA: Well, I think about a thousand. See, we were just evening out. You remember we started as a normal school, and normal schools primarily [were] for teacher training. And teachers, in the main, were women. There were very few, if any, men teaching, like in an elementary school. A few in high school, maybe -- not very many, even in high school. You look back, well, (chuckles), it wasn't your day, but there were very few. Most of them were women. And most of these people were teaching in elementary school. So in the early days, before MY time, there were many more girls attending school than the boys. I don't know what the ratio was, it might be two, three, four to one. It might be five girls and maybe one fellow.

PRY: Was that still true to a certain extent when you were a student? Or was it changing then?

KAJIKAWA: I think it was just about evening out when I came. There were, what, say ten to ten, or something like that. But like in Steverson's day, I think there must have been -- these figures are not correct, probably -- three to one, or four to one.

PRY: Sure, I see your point.

KAJIKAWA: And as time went along, it started evening out.

PRY: Well, at the time you were playing at ASU, which do you think was more important to the people who lived in Tempe: the football play at the Tempe High School, or the football at the college?

KAJIKAWA: Well, let me change gears a little bit. When we played at Phoenix Union, that was the biggest football program, probably, in the state. See, we only had that one paper, again, The Republic, and they covered and traveled all over the state. But they would write about our school, the Phoenix Union program, and that was the biggest thing, I think, over Arizona or our school [ASTC] or NAU, because they put out the biggest paper, and that was the news in Phoenix. Of course the valley wasn't that large either -- we didn't have that many people -- but that was a big thing. Like 10,000, I guess, in the stadium -- it was full all the time. And I think, what [was] it?, about 25¢ or 35¢, something like that, was admission. [For] 25¢, you can buy quite a bit. Today, you drop 25¢, very few people will stoop over and pick it up.

PRY: So when you went from playing high school to college football, you actually went from big time to smaller time.

KAJIKAWA: Right, I think so. You have to say that.

PRY: Yeah, really, today, you know, you're always moving up to a bigger operation.

KAJIKAWA: Right. Well, at Phoenix Union, because we did have some income there, every year we would receive . . . the school would buy new uniforms. But most of the small schools, they would wear [their uniforms] until they wore out. Then they would turn it over to the second team or third team, or J.V. We had new uniforms every year. And then we had what we called second team, and we had third team. And then we had intramurals. So these uniforms went here or here or there. When the intramurals wore them out, they just burned them, I think.

PRY: When you were playing at the college, what did your uniform consist of? I know uniforms have changed a lot. So what was. . . .

KAJIKAWA: Well, we had one set to practice in, and oftentimes, in the early days I think we even played in 'em. They were the khaki kind. But we did have game jerseys, and they were made out of wool. They were not light, and they had long sleeves. And I remember we didn't have numbers on both sides, just the back, and the front we didn't have numbers.

PRY: What kind of shoulder pads did you wear?

KAJIKAWA: They were far from what they are today -- much better. They're cantilevered, you know, in layers and layers. In those days it was almost flat. I remember some of the backs, they were just a piece of leather up there, is all. It didn't have anything in between to absorb the shock. The helmets were kind of shell or leather.

PRY: No face mask, right?

KAJIKAWA: No face mask. Of course just prior to my era, I guess they used to make fun of the leather kind, you'd just fold it up and put it in your pocket. These had shells, of course, but they're not like the ones we have today. No masks.

PRY: Did you wear. . . ? You had thigh and knee pads?

KAJIKAWA: Oh, yes.

PRY: Were those made out of. . . .

KAJIKAWA: Well, they're much improved now, but they had little pockets inside the pants, and you slipped them in.

PRY: Were they made of leather, the pads?

KAJIKAWA: No. The pads? No, they were. . . .

PRY: They were some kind of cloth?

KAJIKAWA: Cloth. They had little -- what do you call it? -- like absorbing kind of a covering, so it wasn't plain fiber, or what-do-you-call-it, plastic.

PRY: Right, ________ sure.

KAJIKAWA: Even in those days, plastic wasn't -- I don't know whether it wasn't invented -- it was the early days.

PRY: It wasn't very common, I know that.

KAJIKAWA: I don't think so.

PRY: And you wore, what, high-top leather shoes?

KAJIKAWA: Oh, yes.

PRY: With cleats?

KAJIKAWA: Cleats. But I think when we were in high school, they were still using some -- you may or may not be familiar -- but we called them box cleats. They were rectangular leather upon leather. You see, like that. When they wore out, you yank 'em out and put some new ones in there. But then soon we had those swivel kind. They were kind of long, and I think they have a rule now, they can't be very long.

PRY: Well, the uniform you just described, this older uniform, it doesn't offer as much protection as the uniform today. Did people get hurt more playing football then?

KAJIKAWA: Let's see how I can answer that. I don't have any statistics.

PRY: But what's just your kind of sense?

KAJIKAWA: Well, I think. . . . Let's see, I'm kinda' goin' around a little bit. But, you know, the boys are bigger and faster, I think, today. And consequently, you're going to need better absorbing type of equipment.

PRY: Yeah, I understand what you're saying, sure.

KAJIKAWA: In our day, they weren't maybe that fast, that big, either. But it's kind of relative.

PRY: Did you ever suffer any injury in college?

KAJIKAWA: No, I don't think so. I might have some today, because of it, but we don't know that either. It's easy to say, "Well, it's my football injury." A lot of people say that. You don't know. But no one's going to admit that it's age, number of years, that's causing. . . .

PRY: Yeah, sure.

KAJIKAWA: And when you become, say, around 80 or so, whether you played football or not, you're going to have some arthritis and a few other kinds of ailments. But it's easy to say, if you had played football, and blame it on football.

PRY: Of course if you did get a serious football injury then, they couldn't doctor it the same way they can now.

KAJIKAWA: No. I can say that for a certainty. Well, we had team doctors and all, but they have specialists now: orthopedic doctors and sports medicine, sports doctors [who] specialize in sports. They know much more about the shoulder, the knee, and they have different ways to correct it, like Barclay [former Phoenix Suns player Charles Barclay], he's going in, I think it's orthoscopic. In our days, there were very few surgeries -- a lot of bad knees, especially knee or shoulder -- they wouldn't hardly ever operate. I don't think the doctors knew enough about it to operate. And consequently, you put ice, or just kind of sweat it out, play on it -- which is a bad thing, and that's about the only thing they need to do -- get the swelling down and then play on it. But they have much better care now.

PRY: What's your best memories of players? Is there some play or game, or something that happened when you were a player, that you remember more than anything else?

KAJIKAWA: (chuckles) Well, gosh, this is not what you asked me, but the thing I cherish most, probably -- and it may still be true -- are the camaraderie and friendships you develop, because they're like Domblin, my team mate, and I think the world of him. And I think he feels the same towards myself, I think. And we still keep in contact, and when he's not well, I just kind of feel. . . . Remember when I told you about him, that his knees and shoulders. . . . And I just kind of feel for him. And I hope he feels that way when I get all bummed up. But those are things you cherish. And even WITHOUT football, the classroom, some of the fellows you had class with, or you were in club together -- many things we've done, probably in a smaller scale. It wasn't as elaborate, the things we did, probably. But we had lots of fun, and MOST of us will say we wouldn't trade it for today, although today the boys and girls have a lot more things going for them. For instance, it's nothing for them to have a nice, brand new car, you see. In our dormitory we had one car, one fellow had a car, and it was about a 1923 car or something like that. And gasoline, you could buy gasoline in the middle of the Depression for about five cents a gallon. It was six, seven, eight, nine, ten. Okay, in order to go to Phoenix, why then, the fellows would chip in a nickel or a dime or pennies, you see, to buy a gallon of gas. And then you'd go to Phoenix. And then coming home, about the bridge, we'd probably run out of gas and have to push it home! (laughter) They remember things like that, and we laugh about it, but. . . . You See. . . . Then, you could go to California for maybe $2.50 or $3.00, something like that, one way on the Greyhound [bus].

PRY: Yeah.

KAJIKAWA: Today, gosh, I don't know what it is, but it's quite a bit more.

PRY: Yeah.

KAJIKAWA: And you could buy, in '33, I think the best Chevy they sold was about six, seven hundred dollars. Today, you got the best Chevy, it's probably, what, about $20,000.

END SIDE ONE

BEGIN SIDE TWO

PRY: Now you got into. . . . How did you get into coaching when you were done? You started coaching right after you finished playing, right? (KAJIKAWA: Right.) The next year.

KAJIKAWA: Well, Coach Lavik was the athletic director, and he was a teacher, and I played for him. And it was hard for any one of us to get a job, teaching or otherwise. And like in high school, I don't think they were hiring fellows just to coach. Most places, I think you were a teacher, and if you had any [sports] experience, they'd probably give you that assignment. They still do some of it now as assistants, probably. But nowadays, you can go as a football coach or basketball coach, and then you might teach a class or two in high school. So that's what I knew best, I guess -- sports. It just happened that way. And Coach Lavik offered me an opportunity in the fall, and that's how I got started. And I owe a lot to him, because if he didn't do that, I don't know what I would have done -- no telling what kind (laughs) of work. I might not [have] worked for several years, you know, during the Depression. Probably wait for the service, and war to come along, which it did. And of course I had to volunteer for the service. We had a special unit, it was called 442nd. It was made up of all Japanese-Americans, and it was all volunteers, everybody in that unit. You heard about that?

PRY: Yeah, I heard about that, sure.

KAJIKAWA: That became quite famous and won a lot of honors. My wife had three brothers in the unit and myself. And we lost. . . . The [four] of us went over, and I was the only one to come back.

PRY: You were in Europe?

KAJIKAWA: We were in Europe.

PRY: Italy, by any chance?

KAJIKAWA: Italy, France, and Germany.

PRY: Did they continue to play football here during the war?

KAJIKAWA: No, they stopped after '42, '43, '44.

PRY: So it'd be three years they didn't play?

KAJIKAWA: Three, I think.

PRY: That would make sense -- '42, '43, and '44 -- because '45, the war ended in the Pacific in August.

KAJIKAWA: Then we started '46. Is that right? We didn't play for three years.

PRY: Yeah, it'd probably be '42, '3, and '4, that you didn't play. I don't know, I'm just guessing.

KAJIKAWA: Right. I should know.

PRY: So you came back from the war and then resumed. . . .

KAJIKAWA: In '46, I think. That's when Coutchie [Head Coach Steve Coutchie] had the team, '46, and he was here only one year, and Arizona beat us 67 to nothing, and then the boosters got together and said, "That'll never happen [again]," and they pooled their resources and started the Sun Angel Club.

PRY: This was right after the war?

KAJIKAWA: In '46. That's the first team. Now, then in '47, then we brought [Ed] Dougherty in. And that's when the "T" formation was first coming in.

PRY: Did that change football?

KAJIKAWA: Well, yes, that opened. . . .

PRY: I mean, this is before my time, so I. . . .

KAJIKAWA: That opened it, they had a lot more deception, rather than a single wing going this way and this way. The "T" formation, you had someone decoying here or here, and then someone else will take the ball. And another rule change help was you could pass from anywhere behind the line of scrimmage.

PRY: What was it before?

KAJIKAWA: You had to be five yards back. So you could run the ball four yards, but you had to drop back a yard, or make it five yards behind the line of scrimmage to pass.

PRY: I see.

KAJIKAWA: You see, that discouraged passing. And if you had two incomplete passes, that was a five-yard penalty.

PRY: Wow.

KAJIKAWA: So it opened up the game a lot.

PRY: So there was more offense, right?

KAJIKAWA: Oh, more offense!

PRY: Now, the football that developed at ASU in the late '40s, was that when it started to become popular?

KAJIKAWA: Well, I think it started around '47, I think, when Ed Dougherty -- and he was . . . he played for Boston College, and they were using the "T," and he was a "T" quarterback. And I think they went to the Orange Bowl -- Boston College. So then he came out and installed that. So there were very few teams using the "T" formation. Now that's practically all -- it's not a straight "T" anymore. They've, I think, combined like the single wing and the "T" together, ____ the formations ____. But the quarterback is still under the center.

PRY: Right.

KAJIKAWA: That remained constant. But the formation behind there, he had to split into the "I" and into something that looks like a single wing, and all that -- only he handled the ball and tossed it out. Or he could fake and pass -- many things like that. And coming up with the ball, see, you could run up there and then still pass. In our days, you couldn't do that. And also the hashmark -- we didn't have hashmarks. If the ball ended up a yard or a foot from the sideline. . . .

PRY: Is that where they started the play?

KAJIKAWA: Right. You start right there, and everybody lined up on the left. We may just waste a down and run it out, and THEN they would bring it into the playing field, bring it out.

PRY: Ah, I see. Well, now, when you were a player, then, what did your offense consist of, mostly running?

KAJIKAWA: Running. Well, you'd pass, but then you didn't have all the deception like they do now, because you had to come back. I could run a deceiver run, if I wanted to pass, I'd have to back up, you see, and then pass. It's difficult to drop back and pass -- your momentum is going that way. See, so some of the rule changes helped to popularize it.

PRY: Well, plus, there were rule changes, and then you said the Sun Angel Foundation was started.

KAJIKAWA: Oh, yes. Well, they helped to put some money into the program so we could go out and recruit.

PRY: Is that when ASU started recruiting outside of the state?

KAJIKAWA: Well, we DID have some out-of-staters. For instance, like Steverson, there were quite a few from around Sacramento and all, but then we would maybe bring one player in, and he liked it. Then he would go home and do the recruiting, you know, on his own. "Let's go to Arizona State," that way. But we didn't have coaches going out to recruit.

PRY: Uh-huh, but you did start in the late '40s, though, right?

KAJIKAWA: Right. Some schools DID, like Southern Cal. I use that for an example, because they're in a big heartland of players. They didn't have to go very far. And many of their alums were coaching in high school or junior colleges, you see, and they had their ties with S.C. and they would send players there. They didn't HAVE to go all over. We were kind of isolated here.

PRY: Did you do any of this recruiting?

KAJIKAWA: Well, I did when I was with Coach Kush. My area was in Hawaii, and I brought some boys from Hawaii.

PRY: Did you like recruiting?

KAJIKAWA: I didn't mind that.

PRY: I mean, I could see how it'd be, you'd spend a lot of time traveling.

KAJIKAWA: Right. A lot of coaches didn't like it.

PRY: What was your favorite part of coaching?

KAJIKAWA: Well, I enjoyed all phases of it. I enjoyed working with the freshmen, because I had a new group each year, and I had them until the season was over. And then in the spring ball, they would go off, you see, and next year I would get another group. It was quite a challenge, boys from all over. We're still close. I had a boy by the name of Jim Shaughnesy -- he's doing quite well in Pennsylvania, and I sent him a little notice about this award that I received, and he sent me a big bouquet of flowers.

PRY: Well, that's nice. So you keep in touch with some of the players, right?

KAJIKAWA: Yes. That was very nice of him, he didn't have to do that.

PRY: No.

KAJIKAWA: See, these are things that you develop. That's beside playing yourself. Now you're coaching, and you still have a lot of boys. And a lot of the players came to the dedication, boys that I had.

PRY: Do they still call you "Coach"?

KAJIKAWA: (laughs) Yeah, most of them.

PRY: Well, you know, some people. . . . There's been a lot of changes in college football since you were a player and nowadays. Do you think it's all for the better? Do you like the. . . .

KAJIKAWA: Well, I guess in the main, as far as the sport itself, it's probably for the better. But for every good item, sometimes you have something that is NOT as good for, shall we say, society or individual development. It's not all good, it's not all bad.

PRY: Right. It's probably like most everything else.

KAJIKAWA: Well, it's true.

PRY: It's more organized, it's bigger, it's a business now.

KAJIKAWA: It is.

PRY: I mean, you certainly could not have called it business when you were a player, right?

KAJIKAWA: No. It was mostly fun then, an opportunity to go to school. We met our goal, went to school, and got our degree, and then eventually we got an assignment or our employment. In those days, we thought that was pretty good.

PRY: Right. At what point during your coaching career. . . . At some point there's a change where you start to get players who come to college who are thinking they want to play professional football. When did that start to change? Was that after the war, or the '50s, or. . . .

KAJIKAWA: Well, I would say mainly after the war, after what caused the popularity of professional football and the money they were receiving, you know, and all these things, we flipped from the college. And then it reflects back to the high school, it reflects back to the Pop Warner. Youngsters with any kind of talent, the parents are giving every opportunity to improve. They have the weight rooms now in high school and playground, you see.

PRY: They have clinics and everything for kids. I mean, obviously, none of this. . . .

KAJIKAWA: We didn't have those things, no. See, when I was in grade school or high school -- or at least grade school -- we didn't have Pop Warner. And Little League baseball, we didn't have that. All those things will advance a fellow with a little talent. If he didn't have talent, if it was dormant, it would kind of help to bring it up a little, bring it out a little earlier. So, again, it's been programmed from up there -- or down here, to up there.

PRY: Yeah. I don't want to take too much of your time, we should be able to wrap this up pretty soon. The whole thing that happened when Frank Kush left, how was that experience for you, and what did it mean to you?

KAJIKAWA: Well, one thing, I was probably toward the end of my career, anyway. But if it wasn't, it would have probably meant -- I may NOT have been out of a job, but in a way, it kind of broke a long line of years, enjoyable years. If I had more years to go, but I was kind of at the end, so you almost took this avenue, "Well, I'll cut the end of my career. And sorry to see this happen, but I'm leaving anyway."

PRY: Yeah.

KAJIKAWA: But if I had more years, I would have been kind of probably frustrated. If I had a few more years to go, and I'd like to have continued on. So it's an individual case.

PRY: So when a coach leaves, the assistants generally. . . .

KAJIKAWA: Most of them leave, because the new coach coming in will bring a new staff. They may keep one or two. But I was there for about nine different head coaches, I was there -- freshmen -- and it just happened that way. Oftentimes they may keep the freshman coach, because he had nothing to do, in a way, with the varsity failure or whatever. Although you could help in preparing the boys for the varsity, that was our job, to keep 'em in school and develop the proper attitude, loyalty, and tradition, and that sort of thing. It's difficult to teach that just out of a book and say, "Here!"

PRY: Right. The dismissal of Kush, was that the first sort of negative? I mean, nowadays, the sports business, you get criticism in the newspapers, you get controversies.

KAJIKAWA: Hired and fired every day.

PRY: Yeah, but it seems the farther back you go, the less of that there is. (KAJIKAWA: Right.) Was this dismissal of Kush kind of the first big event like that in ASU football? Or had there been other controversies before that?

KAJIKAWA: Well, I don't think we had one like that. I don't know whether there would ever be ANOTHER one like that.

PRY: Yeah, that's true. I was not here then, but I've heard a lot about it.

KAJIKAWA: Yes. I think that was a big turning point. I know that we went to Rose Bowl since then, but we haven't had a continuous good representative team. I hate to say "winning team," because winning means one over 500, I guess, in a winning season.

PRY: Right.

KAJIKAWA: Because when we were with Kush, he was the head coach 22 years, and we only had one year that we didn't have a winning season.

PRY: Uh-huh. Well, coaches seem to move around a lot.

KAJIKAWA: A lot more.

PRY: Not just here -- everywhere.

KAJIKAWA: Many years ago, a professor, he started at a school and he stayed there forever -- like a minister. A coach, he hardly ever changed. The athletic director, he was ALWAYS there -- unless he retired on his own -- unless he was a bad apple and did a lot of bad things, they probably threw him out. Otherwise, he's there for life. Today it isn't that way.

PRY: Yeah, so in a sense, it seems to me if you look back on Kush's dismissal, from the perspective of today, it's not quite so unusual as it would have seemed at the time. (KAJIKAWA: Right.) Because now, you're right, the coaches and they get fired.

KAJIKAWA: Next day, they'll have another job.

PRY: I mean, look what happens to the Suns. They don't win the playoffs, and everybody's talking about whether Westfall should have his job or not.

KAJIKAWA: Right.

PRY: Well, is that. . . .

KAJIKAWA: That's not the good part of it.

PRY: Yeah. That must have been one of the biggest changes to take place throughout your career though, was this -- like the attitude of the press and the community towards sports teams.

KAJIKAWA: And the newspapers, they didn't get on coaches, tear 'em up, like they do today -- overnight, like you said about Westfall. He didn't make it the next DAY, even before the night's over. _____ policy.

PRY: Is the money part of the reason for that, do you think?

KAJIKAWA: Well, that's a big factor, I think. You pay, you want results.

PRY: Yeah, that's true. And you didn't get paid very much.

KAJIKAWA: No.

PRY: Football was not a. . . . I mean, even pro players in the '50s and into the '60s did not make a lot of money. I remember recently reading an article about the Brooklyn Dodgers, and how all the players lived in apartments near the stadium, and the butchers and grocers there would give them free food, and other things like that, because they knew that the players, many of whom came from very modest backgrounds, didn't make very much money.

KAJIKAWA: They were getting _________.

PRY: Yeah, they were just working guys like everybody else. They just happened to play baseball.

KAJIKAWA: It's kind of a relative thing. It's hard to compare yesterday with today, or today with yesterday -- it's hard. Even players. You said, "Are the players better?" Well, you can't judge that way. You have to take this period and say, "Was he a good player?" It's a relative thing. If you played in this era, was he a good player? Was he a good player? Like today, are they good players today? Maybe he'd have made that team. Maybe this fellow would have made this team. We'll never know.

PRY: Yeah. Well, that's what makes sports interesting, isn't it? There's always an intangible factor. There's something there that's more than just the pieces involved in it.

KAJIKAWA: It's a relative thing, like the Model "T," we look back, is not worth a nickel, probably. But during that day, during that period, the Model "T," when they came out, that was a great invention.

PRY: Yeah.

KAJIKAWA: Even ten years ago, the cars will not compare with one today. Although when that one came out ten years ago, that was the GREATEST!

PRY: Well, you mentioned the camaraderie as something that you value from your days as a player, and as a coach as well. Is there anything else that you got from football that means a lot to you?

KAJIKAWA: Well, I think the opportunity to come here and play football, and you receive the scholarship. Anything that we derive as a RESULT of going to school and receiving a degree and all that. See, those things are connected WITH sports, as far as I'm concerned. I played in high school -- that helped me to get to college. I came to college, that opportunity for education, worked our way through. And because of that, I happened to be here when we had a benevolent person like Dr. Gammage and Coach Lavik, that gave me an opportunity to stay here. I'm one of the many that got to do that.

PRY: What do you think you would have ended up doing if you hadn't have gone to college, do you know?

KAJIKAWA: I kind of mentioned that a little while ago. I will never know, I don't know WHAT I would have done. You never know. You have some goals, but you never know. There's no way. I could say, "Well, I would have been teaching, or digging ditches over here, or I may have been washing cars, or I may have turned out to be an electrician." You never know. Sometimes you train for certain things, and you may not ever go into that field. Sometimes something diverts you, and you end up doing something else. It may have been for the better, it may have been for the worse. I don't know how you're going to evaluate whether it was for better or for worse -- unless it's the money you earn. If you made a lot of money, it was the right choice. If you didn't, it was the wrong one.

PRY: Yeah. So it opened all these opportunities you would not have gotten otherwise.

KAJIKAWA: I think so, right.

PRY: I guess it still does that for SOME kids.

KAJIKAWA: Well, I think so. I know that coming over, my folks moving to Arizona, when Phoenix was only 50,000, and the state was only 17 years old. We didn't know a soul. To move over here was a great opportunity for ME, at least. My family, most of them moved back, and I happened to stay here. I got to go to Phoenix Union, one of the largest high schools in the country, I think -- ONE of the large ones. We had about 4,500 students. That's pretty big. And I got to come here, it wasn't a large university, but it gave me these opportunities. And we have two daughters, and they went to school here. They both became teachers. One is in California, and Christine's here and she's going up the ladder quite well. She met her goals, I think, most of them. And so it was a good move for my parents to move to Arizona, the way I look at it. Then one thing and another. I think I had MANY good opportunities. We may not have the millions, but we're comfortable, have a nice family, and many friends. Some of them are school friends, some of them are the ones we developed along the way. On Thanksgiving Day this year, we'll be here in this house 45 years. We built the house in 1950. Our girls were six and four when we moved here. Christine was six years old. So they went to school right around the house: elementary school, junior high, and high school right there.

PRY: Yeah, in those days, Tempe was a much smaller community.

KAJIKAWA: Right.

PRY: I mean, even well into the '60s. Well, is there anything else you'd like to say?

KAJIKAWA: (laughs) No.

PRY: I've taken up two hours of your time.

KAJIKAWA: I enjoyed visiting with you.

END OF SIDE TWO

END OF INTERVIEW