Barrios Oral History Project

Narrator: PAUL A. CHAVARRIA
Interviewer: SCOTT SOLLIDAY
Date of Interview: April 8, 1993
Interview Number: OH - 133

Pablo "Paul" Amado Chavarria was born in Solomonville, Arizona, on October 25, 1909. His family moved to Tempe when he was a child. His father, Pablo Chavarria (Sr.) was a farm laborer and a musician, and Paul (Jr.) learned these skills from his father and worked as a farm laborer, a musician in his father's band, and at the Hayden Flour Mill. He assisted the Tempe Historical Museum with the production of the Barrios exhibit in 1992, and has since passed away.

In this interview, he talks about his and his father's experiences as musicians, including working for the Work Progress Administration; Sal Si Puedes and other cotton camps; the two main barrios of Tempe, also known as Barrio Al Centro and the First Street barrio; the Hayden Flour Mill; and other assorted stories of Tempe's past.


FULL TEXT TRANSCRIPT

Copyright © 1998 Tempe Historical Museum

BEGIN SIDE ONE

SOLLIDAY: Okay, this is Scott Solliday interviewing Mr. Paul Chavarria. And, uh . . . . Could you tell me when and where you were born?

CHAVARRIA: I was born over in Solomonville, Arizona. It's five miles east of Safford. I was born in 1909, 25th October.

SOLLIDAY: And your father, I believe, was born there also, wasn't he?

CHAVARRIA: He was born in Arizona, yeah, in the same town.

SOLLIDAY: Do you know how long your family had been there in that area?

CHAVARRIA: Well, we were where I was born in 1909, and my father was born in 1884. He was born at Solomonville, too.

SOLLIDAY: And he's Pablo Chavarria?

CHAVARRIA: Yeah, his name was Pablo, same as mine.

SOLLIDAY: And now I've read quite a bit about a town called Pueblo Viejo. Was that in that area, in Solomonville?

CHAVARRIA: Yeah. I think it's the oldest town around there. And like Florence, Arizona. I think Florence, Solomonville are the oldest as to. . . . And then Tucson, I think. To me, I think those are the two towns that are the oldest. Because Tempe isn't that old. I had a . . . . My father's stepfather, we used call him Tata. Well, you can call him Grandpa, too, see. He used to roam around Phoenix, in his days. I don't know, he was married then or not. But . . . 1923 or '24, something like that, when he came from Solomon, he came over to Tempe. He told me that. . . . He started talking to me, and we started talking about the things around here, and I asked him if he'd ever been in Phoenix before. He said, "Yes, I came to Phoenix. He used to come on a horse." He used to ride a horse. So he said he came to Phoenix, and then he--after he got out of Phoenix--he came to Tempe, but there was no Tempe. It was a little village, he said. Little village right beside the butte someplace, in there, they called San Pablo. Then he came looking for a place to stay that night, see, but there was no place for him to stay, so they told him about going across the river, see, just north of the butte over here, on the other side of the river. And there was a place where, he told me, it's a big lagoon. It had a lot of trees around it. It's got just by the river. He said then, he said they told him about that, so he went. After he left there, there was another man, a fellah, an old man camping there, he said, and he had a burro. And so he's got to hit him, hit him, hit him all the way to where he was staying, so he just got on the other side, so then, when he was resting he said the man came to over where he was and he talked Spanish real good, and then he said that he told them that he was the Dutchman. They called him a Dutchy. He said, "I'm a Dutchy from Superstition Mountain." So he . . . so they got to talking, then he told him that him and some friends of his hit a mine, he owned a mine, and __________ they called-- they were Peraltas. So you know he told me that story in 1923 or '24, I don't remember very well, but he told me about it, see, and I really forgot about it, until a few weeks ago, I told Joseph about it. And then I thought that I didn't remember that, see. And just came up, and I thought about it, and I tell him, pretty good story to tell. Tell him.

SOLLIDAY: Yeah, that was from your grandfather?

CHAVARRIA: Uh-huh.

SOLLIDAY: What was HIS name?

CHAVARRIA: Blas Ortiz. He was my father's stepfather. I don't know anything, he never told me anything about my grandmother. They weren't married or nothing, because in 1923, '24, 1923. . . . No, I think it was 1924 when they came here from Solomon, and that's what he told me about it. I remember he was cleaning a little ditch that my dad had on, where he irrigated his little trees and he plant some vegetables, you know. He said that, uh, he told me about that Dutchman and those days he didn't want to much talk about him, see, in those days.

SOLLIDAY: Not all the stories like today.

CHAVARRIA: ___________ at the dance club. The dance club were the ones that built up the big, big, story about him, I think. That's when we used to play, we played for the dance club over at Superstition Mountains for about four or five years. Even _____ went out of the story, well then we, they call us to go and play. We still go to ______. We play for them a lot. They were very nice people. We used to play for them, like at Dodge Meadow here, and then they had another place over there where they went to that one. Called the Pueblo. You know the Pueblo over here? On Washington Street, that side of Tovrea's.

SOLLIDAY: Oh.

CHAVARRIA: This one used to be, they call it El Pueblo, __________. What do you call those ruins over there, see? There was some old Indian ruins over there. They call 'em Yuman, or something like that. And they revealed that when they started digging ruins, and they hit, you know, they dug something like, uh . . . . They had them like, see, dead ones. When they discovered that, they just took the dirt off, clean them off real good, and there were skeletons right there.

SOLLIDAY: Just laying next to each other?

CHAVARRIA: Yeah, one to __________. We used to play for them, and we used to play in the lounge. They had a, they built, I don't know, they had the stories. They used to tell a lot of stories, see, about that. And that's the way the thing went at, when we were playing with the WPA [Works Progress Administration] we went to lotta, lotta nice places. The . . . they were going to exhibit them or something, see. They were gonna say the story to the place or something. So they took us to play for them.

SOLLIDAY: Now, when did that WPA program start?

CHAVARRIA: When me and my dad joined, it was 1937. But before that, I think they started that the year before, I think, like in '36. The music project, see, because they had a big band, about 40, 50 musicians, there in the band. Then they start bringing up this Mexican culture, see. It was an orchestra, they called it tipica, because it was all strings. There were 15, 25, one time. One time we were 17 like that. But we used to play in churches, schools, like that, LDS [Latter Day Saints] churches. We used to go to them a lotta lotta times. See, there was people that had more dances. Now there's churches, like Baptist churches, like that. It was womans got together, I mean womans, they got together and they. . . . They were gonna play cards or talk to each other, but they want have the music over there. They used to split us. (chuckles) Sometimes we were in five, and sometimes six. Then he others used to go someplace else. So that's the way WPA music went around. Then the band, they used to play concerts. They had a big concert, because they were good musicians, all of them. They . . . I think there were about one or two musicians in Tempe, they used to play right there. One of them, I know, because he was a real good musician: good leader, good clarinet player, and . . . and the director of the band used to tell me that his name is Valdemar Carbajal, he's from Tempe. He was the best clarinet player in the state. He's a REAL good one. And he just came up from the simple families, just like us. He had good talent for music.

SOLLIDAY: What kind of music did you play? Was it like the Mexican-type Mariachi music that they have now?

CHAVARRIA: Well, we used to play a lot of short songs, see, because that's what they, mostly American people liked. It isn't like today, they liked those short songs. When we went into these concerts, they had . . . we played a lot of. . . . We didn't play no bolero, we just played marches, pasa dobles, polkas, waltz -- like that, see? That was our music.

SOLLIDAY: Mostly for dance music type.

CHAVARRIA: In those days it was a dance music. Then we used to, like polkas. They used to really dance polkas. And then they used to . . . they all used to dance a lot of waltz. I think ESPECIALLY _________ waltz, because they don't know how to dance it. You play a waltz in a dance, they don't know how to dance it. But they know bolero, they know cumbia . . . something like that, see. They all go crazy. (laughs)

SOLLIDAY: Yeah. Well, now, you were playing also in different places all around Tempe, then?

CHAVARRIA: Well, we had a . . . . I built an orchestra. I played with a lotta lotta people, lot of musicians in my time, see, when I was younger. I played with a lot of old Mexican musician in Phoenix, I played with them. _________ different orchestra. I was well-liked by the other people because I used to -- I play my guitar pretty good, I think I know, in those days. But then I played with a band from Guadalupe. I played with them 17 years. They were starting, see, when they were real young. I was the oldest one. (chuckles) Well, they was good for then, too, because I gave them a lot of good ideas, see, for how to chart their music. All the charts for the music jobs and things like that. And then I used to tell them about __________. I was playing . . . used to play this way and that way, or something like this, see. And I got them well, well acquainted, and we, they got, those 17 years. They were getting to be pretty good, because they started this. I started with them. I didn't start, I started with them when they were starting. I helped them a lot. This music was. . . . There was a . . . I think, to me, this was the best band I played with, because the other guys, they were too wild. (laughs) See, they liked the good times, they liked to sip a lot of beer, and I had to join them or else they would say that I was. . . . I don't know how to tell you, but I was like a coward or something. (chuckles) And I decided to join them. And I enjoyed it, too. I enjoy my beer and everything. (chuckles) Is this thing recording?

SOLLIDAY: Yeah.

CHAVARRIA: I'm talking too much.

SOLLIDAY: Oh no, this is great, because this is the things. . . . Well, obviously, a lot of this is never written down anyplace, because a lot of that occurred, a few stories from people about all of the different musicians that played in the Tempe area. I think most of the people I talk to were pretty young at the time, they remember a lot of the. . . . I guess, did you also play at some of the cotton camps and the little towns further out?

CHAVARRIA: Where?

SOLLIDAY: Oh, the places like Sal Si Puedes.

CHAVARRIA: Oh, yeah, we played over there a lot of times. I played with my dad, and they'd have an orchestra. It was a rough place over there. Every time we went over there, played weddings, but the guys would shout when we would play, and sometimes they just had a peleada [fight], see, just like that. But there were a lot of rough fights. This place where we went, it was well built. I don't know how old it was, but they called the place La Prision. La Prision is "the prison." I don't know what it was before that, but that was a cotton pickers' camp, see, all of that along there. Because they used to bring a lotta lotta people from Mexico to pick cotton, see. They had a lot of those big tents like the soldiers had. That's the kind of. . . . They had camps. They had camps by the name of Number One, Number Two, Number Three, and like that. Sal Si Puedes. (chuckles) You know what that means, Sal Si Puedes?

SOLLIDAY: Yeah.

CHAVARRIA: "Get out if you can." (both chuckle)

SOLLIDAY: Do you know how it got that name?

CHAVARRIA: I don't know. I don't know how. But I think it was some wise guy come up with that name of that town, for that place, because he said, "If you walk in there, you can't come out." (laughter) That's when it used to be pretty rough. Before I started playing with my dad, one time he said they were playing a wedding, see, and the bridegroom, see, married this girl. But he had a rival that he didn't know, see. He was the boy before him that had this sweetheart, see. And he was real mad. I think he was the one _____________. And my dad said we had to get out of there any way we could. Any way we could, we had to get out of there, because really, every place was fight. He said he remembered he got his music stand and his music, and he just (laughs) went to the car. Because it was right there, see. There was a canal, and then going like this, you had to cross the canal, see, and then a big canal going that way. ____________. I think it's the one that's the other side of Mesa. I think that canal is the one, because it's about a mile or three-fourths of a mile from McClintock, where is it. I don't remember the name of it, that it was. They used to call it Sal Si Puedes, ________ in those days. That's the way I heard it all the time. It was just this side of the canal. You know, when you go on McClintock, you cross a canal about __________ big canal. In those days, it was beautiful. There was no killing or anything like this, see. There were just fist fights, see, in those days. But now (chuckles) there's a lot of difference between now. The best man win that fight. And they used to let -- if a couple of guys start to fight, they just let them fight, see. Nobody else meddles. They just take care and nobody's waiting there. But you know, over in Sal Si Puedes they were about three, four, five guys that were make the fuss and they were. . . . I just can't tell very much about it. They had that camp, they had a store on the side there. I knew the man that used to run it but I don't remember his name right now.

SOLLIDAY: So it's almost like a little town, except that it. . . .

CHAVARRIA: No, it wasn't a town, it was just this housing close to the canal, and he started by the other ditch over there, there was a store, see. It was just farms. I think the farm that these people used to pick on was, in this place, was Ray Saylor's. Ray Saylor's the one that rented all those farms are right there, see, because on the other side of the the canal, Ray Saylor had some more farms. He had a . . . . Those Saylors, they had big farms around there. I don't know how many brothers -- I knew two of them. I knew Charles, and I knew Ray, but I don't remember, they had another brother. But Ray was the one that was the big man.

SOLLIDAY: Yeah, I remember seeing that name before.

CHAVARRIA: I remember when they were paying the cotton pickers here on a Saturday, he had somebody else that was checking, seeing how much they have to pay each other, and then he was among the people, you know.

SOLLIDAY: Now, a little bit earlier you said that when you first came here you lived on First Street?

CHAVARRIA: First Street. That's where we -- and then when we came here in 1918, we lived on First Street. That's the barrio there, and that side of the story. It was one of the main barrios, because there were two barrios, see. It was up here, that one, on the east side of town, the Mill Avenue. They called it Los Arribenos, that was the name of it, see. Los Arribenos. And then from the dip by the mill going the other way, on First Street, they used to call it Los Abajenos. These were up, the others were down the hill. (chuckles) That's one place, that's part of the story. They never find it over there, where new place. They never. . . . See, all these children, all these people -- I call them "children" because they don't know anything about old Tempe. We came here in Tempe, 1918. We live here, we live here for nine months. My mother got sick. So we went back to Solomon again. Then my dad came back in 1919, he stayed . . . about two, three months, I think. They went back because Mother was pretty sick. In 1920, my mother died, next year. I think they stayed all 19 years over there. I don't remember where they went because ______. They got back to Solomon, they were, my mother was pretty sick. And well, she died in December, the 20th day of December, 1920. And then the next year we came, we came Tempe again, it was 1921. _________ we came back and we still here. (both talking at once) That's when my dad started playing a lot of music with that group in the picture. That group. Because that man that used to play the bass, the heavy guy, he's our uncle. He was the one that brought us over here. He talked to my dad, and __________ because he wanted to play around the city, because there were no musicians here. My dad was the only orchestra here in Tempe. And he had all around, Tempe __________ Scottsdale, Chandler, and Gilbert and all those places, up to Casa Grande. In those days he was the only one.

SOLLIDAY: That's a big area.

CHAVARRIA: Yeah. But when he went to play, he had to go one place at a time. Of course in those days, they didn't get very many.

SOLLIDAY: Now this orchestra was his first one?

CHAVARRIA: This, except this man. That other picture.

SOLLIDAY: This one here?

CHAVARRIA: Those four. They used to play over in Solomon, see. There was an orchestra over in Solomon, too. When they came, when my dad came, see, my uncle was here, and then he was the one that was, brought them over here.

SOLLIDAY: And what was his name?

CHAVARRIA: Lauterio Ballesteros. He's got family around.

SOLLIDAY: Oh, okay, he was in that other photograph.

CHAVARRIA: Yeah, he was in that wedding. That's his son, his youngest son.

SOLLIDAY: Oh, that's right. That is he was a Junior.

CHAVARRIA: Uh-huh.

SOLLIDAY: And he was the one they called Platero?

CHAVARRIA: Platero, yeah. (chuckles)

SOLLIDAY: And so that was your father's first orchestra, well in Solomon and then here in Tempe?

CHAVARRIA: Well, over here, yeah, Tempe. And then after that there were a couple of boys in Tempe, Carbajal, the one I was telling you a while ago, he was the youngest one, but the two older one. One used to play trumpet, the other clarinet. They ______, mt father got all of them. And then he made an orchestra, another orchestra, see. That's where I started playing, was in 1926. I started playing with my dad's orchestra. He . . . I wasn't ready for music _______, but I know how to strum the guitar some. So he said, "I don't want to put you in school," so I had to learn how to follow an orchestra. I never played with an orchestra, except with my brother. (chuckles) I had a younger brother. He played violin, see. In those days, he played violin and me and him -- they came to my dad for music, see, if they had a wedding, so they said, told my dad, my dad had a job so he said he couldn't go, but he said, "You know where I can find some musicians around here?" My dad said, "No, I don't know. But I got a couple of boys that can play a little bit." "Well, who are they?" And then I went home. (laughs) And then I told my dad, "No, Dad, we only know three numbers, that's all we can play." (laughs) And the man said, "That'll be good enough." (laughter) We played four hours of a wedding with three numbers: two polkas and a waltz! (laughter)

SOLLIDAY: And just playing them over. . . ?

CHAVARRIA: Over and over. Oh, but they danced! They danced the whole. . . . (laughter) My brother, see, he was small, he was pretty sharp. And the man came to me and said, "How much do I owe you?" In those days they only paid a dollar an hour, see. And I said, "You tell the professor over there," pointing to my little brother. And he said, "How much do I owe you?" "Eight dollars." (laughs) "Say four dollars." (laughs) Eight dollars, that was a lot of money! And you know, he was wearing short pants like. . . . (laughs) Well, we enjoyed it, it was our first job. Then we had another job, played for the Alianza [Alianza Hispano Americana], for the Alianza Club, an insurance company. ________ insurance, see. And we went with the three numbers. (laughter) Well, we just didn't have ___________ to learn another one, see. And a couple more (laughs) so we could go play. (laughs)

SOLLIDAY: Were the Fiestas Patrias also always something that was in Tempe through all those years?

CHAVARRIA: No, we used to . . . the Fiestas Patrias, we used to play over in Glendale, Phoenix -- oh, a lot of places. It was a full orchestra, see. We used to have six musicians. That's what we used to call full orchestra. In those days we didn't use any drums -- nobody used any drums. There was a. . . . Everybody that had an orchestra over there, they had a violin, trumpet, trombone, clarinet, and a guitar and bass, that's all. That was the only instruments.

SOLLIDAY: So it was just regular six-piece orchestra?

CHAVARRIA: Uh-huh. Until. . . . I started playing with the drums when I got in the WPA, because, you know in 1932, when the Depression. . . .

END SIDE A

[Editor's Note: The following comments were made by Paul Chavarria during this oral history interview. These comments are not on the interview tape because that part of the interview was not correctly recorded.]

1. During the Mexican Revolution, people came across the border and went to Metcalf, and the mines near Clifton. Many moved on from there and eventually came to Tempe.

2. The Mutualistas were organizations which provided insurance for the Mexican people. The Liga Protectora Latina went broke in the 1930s. He remembers that there were stories about one man in the organization who allegedly took all the money from the treasury and fled to Puerto Penasco, Mexico.

3. Hispanic leaders in Phoenix would often meet at the Red Rooster, a bar and restaurant at Washington and 16th Street. His father was involved with this group.

4. Paul Chavarria became involved with the Sociedad Mutualista Porfirio Diaz. He was a member and an officer of the organization in the 1950s.

5. Regarding the end of segregation at the Tempe Beach swimming pool, he claims that Danny Rodriguez and others went to talk to the Governor about the issue.

6. He did not know Antonio Celaya personally, but recalls that he was a "high hat." He did not elaborate on what he meant by that.

7. Cresensio Sigala was the truant officer. He had played football at the Normal School.

BEGIN SIDE B

CHAVARRIA: . . . I think we said we were in so we could get a job. (laughs)

SOLLIDAY: Were there many black people in Tempe at that time?

CHAVARRIA: Black people? No, in MY days, all they knew -- Tom the barber -- there was a barber, Tom. I don't remember his last name. He was well-liked, he was a real nice guy. He had a barber ______ right in the town. Then there was a banker, one who used to -- he was the one that cleaned the bank and sweep and everything, took care of the things outside, like the little flowers and something like that. They were the only two people that were black here in Tempe. They didn't let 'em. Then they let. . . . How we bought. . . . This black couple bought it, see. But ______ he was kinda -- I think he was mixed white and black, see. But he wasn't dark, he wasn't black. Then he was married and he build that little house that we bought. He build real nice. On the corner of Ash and Fourth Street. Then he build a little carport in the back, but it wasn't a carport, it was to wash cars. This was what he was doing, was washing cars. But the lady was working someplace else. I don't think she had a job -- a teacher or something. After that, they, when we bought the house he was working, she was over in Flagstaff or something. She was working over there. But they were separated. I don't know what happened to them after that. Then when the black people started coming to Tempe was when, right here on 40th Street, 40th Street, like that, up to Broadway, and along, I don't know how much. I think it was about half-a-mile or a mile square. They build a place on 40th Street, a little place they called Okima, where ALL the black people were. I used to go and deliver them. Every Friday I used to go and deliver them feed for a ____________. They had chickens, they had hogs, and they have some _____________. I knew a lot of people in there, at that place.

SOLLIDAY: But that just started more recently, then. . . .

CHAVARRIA: Yeah. No, it was in the '40s. That's when I started work. I started working at the [Hayden] flour mill in 1942, and I, after that, I wanted a job as a truck driver, see. The boss told me, "Well," he said, "I don't think I'll give you no job no truck driver, because you're a better warehouseman than driving trucks." (chuckles) And I told him, "But I like to drive one." So he sent me every Friday, he sent me up to -- no, not Friday, Saturday -- because we used to work Saturdays in those days, up to the store and they had the orders and I used to deliver around. I used to go to Okima. (chuckles) I made a lot of friends over there with those black people. Some of them were very nice. In those days they weren't like they are now -- especially the old people. The old people there were very very nice. I LIKED them. But I never enjoy myself getting mixed with them, see. Like, I never did mix with them. Because those days I was pretty shy, I didn't spoke English. I knew how, but to me, it was like, I thought I get laughed at or something like that. _________________. And now I don't know what I'm doing here (chuckles) talking -- I never stop talking for about an hour.

SOLLIDAY: Well, actually I just wanted to ask you about one more thing. You'd said before about the barrio over on First Street. We never really knew a whole lot about that area, and wonder if you could describe it, what was. . . .

CHAVARRIA: Well, I just remember the people, see, because the boys from this barrio here used to play ball with the ones over here, see. And that's why they used to say, "We're gonna play with the Arribenos, we're gonna play ball with the Arribenos." And that's the barrio over here. You know, those boys that played music over there [at the Museum], Los Rivas? They come over there.

SOLLIDAY: From over on First Street.

CHAVARRIA: Yeah, they were born and raised right there on First Street.

SOLLIDAY: Were those, were there farms over in that area, too?

CHAVARRIA: Well, in those days there were farmer. . . . Well, the farms that were around there was Mr. Smith and the lady, I don't remember her name. I used to go there. La viuda, the widow. Those were the people that used to have farms around there, see, in those places on First Street.

SOLLIDAY: The San Francisco Canal still went through there, didn't it? The San Francisco Canal. That -- the old canal that was there.

CHAVARRIA: Oh, on Hayden?

SOLLIDAY: Was that still -- went through there?

CHAVARRIA: Oh, yeah, Hayden Canal was until late. Then they started building up, see. And they called it, when it was. . . . It was over here, in, you know, top of the butte, and it run the corner where, you know, where the train goes up?

SOLLIDAY: Uh-huh.

CHAVARRIA: There used to be a ditch right there. That thing's STILL there, and I don't know.

SOLLIDAY: Yeah, _____________.

CHAVARRIA: The ditch went all the way down this. . . . This Hayden Canal used to give water to a lot of those farms right there, see. There were little farms. When I was working at the [Hayden Flour] Mill, that's at the time they closed, they build that, the Haydens. The Haydens I think were the ones that built that, see, canal, because that mill used to run with that turbines there . . .turbine? Yeah. I thought they had a picture . . . They had a waterfall right there, know what I mean?

SOLLIDAY: Now when you worked there, that wasn't there, they weren't using that anymore.

CHAVARRIA: No, they had electric then. They had a turbine workings there. That's what used to turn the mill. That was the way in the old times -- the OLD mill, that . . . . Did Trumbull, was the name of the man, that Hayden? Trumbull Hayden.

SOLLIDAY: Charles Trumbull Hayden.

CHAVARRIA: He's the one that built that, the one that built that mill, too, the old one. But I didn't know any, I just started working 1942 in that mill, when. . . . It was real small, it was just a front and the warehouse was on the side. And what you see ______________. I got a big picture of the mill now, see. Because I saw that mill start growing. I saw those all things they got on the side, those bins. I saw them from the start up until they build it.

SOLLIDAY: Oh, so that was all later. What, in the '40s?

CHAVARRIA: It was, yeah. It was. . . . They used to bring a lot of people to work there, see. It's a union company. Union Cement Company? Union Cement Company, was the one that brought all that concrete for those things. The first time they had nothing there really -- just a lot of little _____________. They were a thing that _______ the beams. They were building ALL the places the same time. See, they had a platform, and from there, they raised it up like that, see. And when they come to the top of the beam, they ______ right there, see. And I think they were about ten feet high when all those beams were start, the ______ start holding, see. And they had to knock all that cement down. And where they. . . . The river was making do that. . . . Where they dumped the cement to build those tanks [silos], they just like jacked it up, see. When they were ready to start over again, they just laid it down. But they had lost a lot of money, you know. Anyway, the Union Company started step one, two, and then they made up for the loss. The other one that __________. It was something, really some big deal with that. So you know, every time they fill up all those bins to the level of the train, that they start bumping everything up. You see how long those tanks are?

SOLLIDAY: Uh-huh.

CHAVARRIA: They were all together at the same time.

SOLLIDAY: That would have been. . . .

CHAVARRIA: That was a big job.

SOLLIDAY: Would have been the tallest thing in town.

CHAVARRIA: Huh?

SOLLIDAY: It was the tallest thing in town then when it was built.

CHAVARRIA: Yeah. And besides that, it was on top of a hill! (laughter) Tempe was, when we came here to stay in 1921, and I remember I was going to school right there at grade school, I was going to third grade. I saw ____ Mill Avenue, when they. . . . Because Mill was kinda deep, see. And they, after that, they, Twohy Brothers were the one that, it was the company that built all this side roads over here, out close to, that's out to Apache Junction. That's where he went.

SOLLIDAY: Oh, all the cement roads.

CHAVARRIA: Chandler, Kyrene, all those roads. All those little roads. Then when we came back. . . . That started when we left here, see, in 1918. That's when they started coming, the Twohy Brothers. In 1920 we weren't here, so that's when they built, just about finished all those side roads. And then they started Mill Avenue. I remember it was about that big. And they fill up with gravel and that. And you know, on top, after they laid the concrete, they, after it was drying already, they had a lot of barrels of tar, see, those 50-pound barrels, 50-gallon barrel. I think 50?

SOLLIDAY: Fifty or. . . .

CHAVARRIA: I don't remember, but they were those big barrels, those big drums. ___________ with tar, see. They melt it, see. Melt it and then they spread it out, and then they. . . . I got a Centennial book, where it shows where that roller. . . . After they got cold, or it was getting cold, that _____________ press it down. It was sort of white ________ on the front. And then that back wheel _________.

SOLLIDAY: So it was right when you came back.

CHAVARRIA: It was in, oh, around 1920. No, we were here, I was young, we were going to school. I remember we used to get a little barrel, we used to get some of that tar and chew it! (laughs) I think now that the old Tempe, the first time that they had, they had just one constable. __________, that's what they used to call the constables. And he used to ride a horse. Everything was dirt, so he just rode a horse. And at City Hall they had a big frame that had a bell on top, see. And, for. . . . when they had a fire, they rang that bell, see. You could see the firemen come out from the stores. (laughter) They didn't have anyplace, they didn't have regular fire squad, fireman squad, see. The firemen were all working guys. (laughs)

SOLLIDAY: So they all just came running out?

CHAVARRIA: Yeah, they hear that bell, they started running out of the stores. (laughs) Then at nighttime, at nine o'clock, they'll ring that bell again, see, for all of the children there were. Well, those days _______ not, but twelve years or 15 years, I don't remember. Fifteen years old, I think. They didn't allow you in town, at nine o'clock in town. You had to out of -- you had to be home at nine o'clock, or if they catch you, they give you a chance. Next time, they put you in jail, and you go to sleep in jail. (laughter) So, nine o'clock, if there were some children around, they just __________. A lot of times they'd give you a little chance because you came out of the movies, see. Nine o'clock, they just see the first movie. And they don't show anymore (laughs), just one movie and a cartoon, that's a comic.

SOLLIDAY: Well, I think I went through all these questions here. This has certainly been interesting talking with you, because of all of these. . . . You know, I do a lot of research and I only get kind of the facts and some names and dates, and things like this help with all the stories about everything, because it's a little more of, I guess, the way things really happened, than just all the facts here. So I appreciate being able to interview you today.

CHAVARRIA: I was going to tell you about this man. This man, he's the constable. His name was [Abraham N.] Smith. I can remember that. This was a long, long time ago, before there was. . . . Well, it used to be very nice man, very nice. He was kind of heavy, and he was a big guy. And he rode a nice big horse because he was heavy. He wasn't a dark skinned -- I don't think he was dark skinned person. I don't know, we called him in Spanish, Don Alasam. I don't know if he was dark skinned or not. Black skin is a red horse. So anyway, __________. We didn't talk about those ladies over here __________. Next time we will. That was another deal we used to do, me and my father used to work, for those Japanese, see. There was nothing, they had a land lease, from Mr. White. And in 1919, when we came, my dad and my uncle got a job with them, see. They were farmers, so they knew how to work __________, and they knew how to work the land. The Japanese really liked them, they were pretty good. They used to have a little orchard of -- well, not little, of blackberries and strawberries. They used to. . . . (chuckles) We used to come from school, and well, I wanted to pick strawberries. I think they paid us three cents for one of those little boxes, see. It was not too small. But there were a lot of people here, because it was sticky. A lot of sticky _____. (laughs)

SOLLIDAY: It's amazing that they could grow that, because it seems like the sun gets so hot that it would burn them up.

CHAVARRIA: Yeah. But they knew very well when to pick 'em up. They were men that know how to plant vegetables and everything. And they knew when to pick them. They pick 'em up before they were too ripe. But when they get ripe, see, they get too soft, when you get ahold of the basket. We used to, when they were, they'd run there with too ripe and just. . . . (laughter) _____________. It was pretty good. We used to walk that far, and then it was kind of dangerous those days to cross, to walk on the cross streets here, on the old bridge.

SOLLIDAY: Oh, the one they tore down?

CHAVARRIA: ________________. And they had some of those government trucks, a truck and trailer, and a lot of times, because one of them was going to bump me, _______. See, after they start, you get right to the end, there was no room for nothing else, see. There was two cars. And then, when they passed, you had to get to the side, see, to the rail. And then this time I got like that on the rail and they just went and just missed my back like this. I got out, I was sure scared. I never drove that bridge again. I went on the road ___________. It was kind of, because that river was too deep, a lot of water in it ________________.

SOLLIDAY: Those were the only two bridges there for a long time, I guess.

CHAVARRIA: Yeah. And then, that old bridge, when -- it was sinking, see. The left pillar on the north side was sinking, and every time the water was running, the river got flooded, they don't let anybody go across -- not even walking.

SOLLIDAY: They were worried that it might break out any time.

CHAVARRIA: But people don't weigh that much. (laughter) See, there was a man that had a horse one time, a race horse. He was a nice _______ for a blood horse, see. He was letting them cross the bridge. It was kinda flooded, see. _______________. That bridge never sank in all these years until they knock it down. And then they paid $25.00 for somebody to. Because he tried to cross it, see, but he went in the wrong place, he went right in between the two bridges, the car bridge and the train bridge. There was no bottom to that place, it was so deep. And that man tried to cross right there, see, and there were a lot of whirls in the water, see. And so, you know, he took the horse and just turn 'em around and knocked the man out of his seat, and the water took the horse, see, and [carried him] about 60 yards. And then he was standing right there in the middle of the river, and the water was running and he was going like this. He said, "I'll give $25.00 to anybody that can get that horse out of there." So this Mexican man, he was one of those enganches [an enganchista was a farm labor recruiter], he got cotton pickers. He said, "I'll do it." So he just get a long rope. So they got a long rope over there, and he went about 50, 60 feet up there, up the stream, and he just crosses it. By the time he got to the horse, he was right with the horse, see, so he just. . . . They just went and got hold of the reins and just ________ and help him get out.

SOLLIDAY: Well, for $25.00, that was a lot of money.

CHAVARRIA: Yeah, $25.00 was a lot of money. And that horse was worth more than that. He was a nice little horse. He said the man said ________ horse ____________. He was very happy with it. He was ________. (pause) Well, I have to go back there.

SOLLIDAY: Okay.

CHAVARRIA: I'll be back.

END OF INTERVIEW