Barrios Oral History Project

BEGIN TAPE THREE, SIDE ONE

MATSCH: Did you sleep outside in the summers?

HORMELL: When we lived at the ranch we did, but we did it only when we were allowed. It was sort of like a special thing. But I know a lot of other people did sleep outside.

MATSCH: They didn't have any cooling?

HORMELL: They didn't have the cooling, and also they didn't have enough room in their homes -- maybe they had more kids -- so some of them slept outside on their beds.

MATSCH: On a porch or something?

HORMELL: No! On the wide-open -- you know, like if I wanted to put a bed there, with no room for nothing. But you know what? We used to think that was so great, us kids, because we had a bed, and it was like we had to be inside and they could sleep outside. So as a child, I used to go, and like my neighbor behind me, they used to rent from my grandma, and they had a bed outside, and some of the kids slept there. And we used to lay there and say, "Oh, you're so lucky because you can look at the stars and all that." But that was another thing that was real popular in those days, the parents would sit out there and tell you stories. Storytelling was a BIG thing then. And stories about where they came from and what they did. And also just little stories of, like Little Red Riding Hood, but in Spanish. That kind of thing. That was fun. And they taught us how to sing, and my grandmother would teach us how to pray, and we'd sit out there, outside on the bed. But no, she would never let us sleep. . . . My grandmother was STRICT, she would not let us sleep outside. But a lot of them had to, it wasn't that. . . . But see, we didn't see it that way, we thought -- the ones that had it, we thought, "Oh, man, they're lucky! They get to sleep outside!" (laughs) And so nothing was thought of about that, and some people, they don't want to talk about it in the past, because they HAD to and that was like their way of life. But then that's how it was. That's what made that part beautiful, I think. It all has good benefits. I think you appreciate what you have now more. I know I do. I appreciate what I have now, because there's a lot of things that I didn't have then. Like we were joking the other day about recycling -- you know how they're pushing recycling -- and I said, "Boy, us Mexican people, we've been recycling forever! (laughs) What's WRONG with these people now that they make such a big deal out of it and put it on TV?!" I mean, if we couldn't use something here, and your aunt might be able to use this table with her kids. I mean, it was always, you know, places, all places. I remember my grandmother, because she bought clothes, we always had clothes, you know, because she bought clothes to sell to people. We got the first choice. So one time she had bought me these pretty little blouses, boat collar, you know, was the thing at that time I remember. And so I had a pink and a blue. Well, I loved the pink so much, so I wore that more than the blue. But I loved the blue only for special occasions. And one time I came to look for my blue one and it was gone! And I said, "Grandma, what happened to my -- I'm looking for my blue blouse." And she said, "Well, I seen that it was just hanging there and you never wore it, so I sold it." "(gasps) What do you mean you sold it?!" (laughter) I never even wore it at all. I'll never forget, I was crying, you know, making a big stink, and then she said, "You ought to be ashamed of yourself." She always never scolded but always talked to us. That was her way. That's why I say she was a beautiful woman, because she always talked to us not as a scolding, but as an example. She was always saying, "Well, you should not feel that way. There's other people that didn't have any clothes. And I seen it hanging in the closet and you didn't. . . ." You know, that kind of a -- that made you feel kind of guilty, thinking bad. "Well how come she sold my blouse?!" But that's the way that she was, and that's the way that she presented herself. We accepted it. That was just part of the thing.

MATSCH: Did most of the families have a car?

HORMELL: No. As a matter of fact, my mom was, like in Mickey Mouse, my mom was a taxi for everybody.

MATSCH: She had a car?

HORMELL: She had a car. And so whenever there was a baby to be born or emergencies at night, emergencies, she was always there. Also, because we had the restaurant we always had more food and stuff. So many a time they would come over and ask if they could borrow this or they could borrow sugar. We were always open for that. But no, a lot of people didn't have cars. They just couldn't afford them, or they just didn't have them.

MATSCH: I'm almost afraid to ask this: When they used public transportation, they didn't have to sit in the back?

HORMELL: No, no. No, by that time it was a little bit more. . . . I don't remember, because, see, we had to use public transportation to go to Phoenix to do our shopping, you know, our clothing shopping. No, we used to just have to walk a long ways because of the area where they picked us up was way down on Mill Avenue. We lived way over here. And we were closer than maybe the other barrios, like Rural Road -- they had to walk to Apache Boulevard to get it, and they were on Eighth Street and University and they had to walk to Apache to get the bus, or walk downtown to Mill Avenue to get the bus. So they were even further. So they didn't make any special routes for US at all.

MATSCH: Okay. Let's talk a little more about the church. You've told me what they did to your neighborhoods and your culture. Is this the same church that started the school because they wanted you educated?

HORMELL: Yes. Different people came, you know, transition of different priests and their way of doing things when they become the leaders. The other priest came with that . . . mind, to educate the children and bring [them] up as Catholics and good, educated Catholics and that type of thing, because that's what they seemed to need there, and that's what they wanted to do. But as the years went by, they lost the cause somewhere.

MATSCH: Now, you told me the Irish priest was the one that was __________.

HORMELL: They were all Irish -- it was just that one person.

MATSCH: I mean, today you have your culture in the church, tomorrow you don't? I mean, was it that quick, or did he just come in. . . .

HORMELL: He came in and reigned (laughs) I call it. When I was. . . . I think he came in. . . . Father Bectel was when I graduated. So he came the year AFTER. I graduated in 1953, I think he came in, and he just retired last year. So he has been at Mount Carmel since then, so it was his way or no way. And I'm not saying nothing about the man -- he did a lot of things, you know, business ways he did a lot of things: support for the Hispanic people that started the church. And that's where our heart is, is that our families struggled and saved and they had nothing to begin with, but within themselves they helped build that church. They put the bricks down on the church, so to speak -- the families that were in construction, because most of them went into construction. They helped build that church, and then to just say, "Nope, we don't want it this way." You know, the church is supposed to be the community, and this is how the Catholic Church is teaching now, you ARE the church, you're the community, and the community -- just like Saint Tim's here, they call us the community church. We are the people that make the church, not the church making the people. He came from the old country and his philosophy was, (raps table for emphasis) "I am the ruler and you do MY way." We did have a lot of beautiful priests that were there. I remember Father Rupe, but then he became real friendly with the Mexicans and away he went to Eloy. He loved them so much, they sent him to. . . . Father Padia is in Tucson, but he was good, too, and he was Mexican. I think he had a little rough time there.

MATSCH: What about other churches? Were there very many other churches that the barrio people went to?

HORMELL: There was one little Methodist church with a Methodist preacher. Now those Methodists couldn't go to the Anglo Methodist churches -- they just went to the Mexican Methodist church. There must have been one good soul that said, "Maybe we should start a church in a Mexican area." The Mormons at the time didn't want Mexicans, because they were not considered (laughs) like humans, either. So they were not. Now the change of the Church, again, with different people changing in the transitions, then other people come in with good, better ideas, and better understanding of other cultures and people. You know, we have a lot of Mexicans have turned Mormon. But at that time, if you were Mexican, you would never be a Mormon. That was one safe spot that you were not going to be pushed and become one. That was just one of those things. We DID have a lot of churches, but never. . . . And then too, the Church, OUR Church, I remember one time I wanted to go to a -- a girlfriend of mine got married and I think she was Methodist -- I forget what church it was, it was on the same street Mount Carmel was, on University -- and I was told I couldn't go because. . . .

MATSCH: I remember that, from Nogales, that would happen.

HORMELL: Yeah, because it was[n't] Catholic. And I said, "Ay." And then, you know, that's the beauty of going away and growing up, because when I went to Florida, I was Catholic but I had a lot of beautiful neighbors that were every other religion. And I was over there, and I thought, you know, that was IN me, I wanted to go and search. And I did go to their services, and I still kept going to mine. But I went to theirs, just to find out what it was all about, and it's all about the same thing, the same God and the same way -- everybody just believes just a little bit different. They have their ceremony a little different, but it was all working for the same thing, for the same cause, the same God, and it was beautiful. That part of my life, I thank God that he did take me here and place me over there so I could reach out for other people and learning about other cultures. Because I was raised in a Mexican barrio, that's all I knew. And then the few Anglos that were allowed to be with us, and that was it. But when I lived in Florida, my real good friends were Italian, and they were just so much like us in their culture and their Christmas cookies are just like the Mexican cookies. And then when I lived in Pampered Pines, it was a brand new community and we all were new and we were all young families, and we always had different. . . . We called it the United Nations, because everybody was from different areas, you know. It was like an airline neighborhood, all the guys that worked at the airlines lived there. And I remember we used to have dinners and everybody'd bring from their own culture, and we had a GREAT time -- international dinners, we'd call them. And it was really neat, because we're all the same. It was so funny, one time I made Mexican cookies, the wedding cookies; my girlfriend made the Italian cookies and they were the same kind, and we were giving out the recipe, and it was the same recipe! only we called it different, and Norwegian and Polish and. . . . I mean, we just had. . . . And it was so much fun! But I not only got to know other cultures, I also got to know other religions. And so that part of me grew, and I'm real thankful to God that I got to be over there. I lived there for twenty -- for thirty years, really -- over there, and I really grew up over there, by myself, away from everything here. I would come to visit, and I would see the changes of Tempe and all that. I always kept up, because my mom sent me the Tempe Daily News to keep up with what was happening in Tempe. But like I said, I don't regret living over there for that amount of time, because I really did grow and learn a lot about people. And I not only learned about -- you know how we talk about Hispanics -- well, over there, because it's the Mecca of the whole world, it's like an import-export place, and so we have from all over South America, from all the Caribbean. It was strange the first time seeing a black person speak Spanish, or a Chinese person speak Spanish (laughs) because in Cuba they had all kinds speak Spanish, because that was their main language. And then I always remember what my grandma used to say, "Some day you won't regret it that I'm teaching you how to read and write Spanish," because I utilized it a lot over there. I had my own business over there, and what I did was, I was the only demonstration person in the whole United States having bilingual presentations in all the grocery stores. You know what they do now here? I don't know if you've gone to the store where they have -- Price Club -- where they have these people giving out food? (MATSCH: Uh-huh.) Well, I was the only one, and I started that. That concept was in advertising way back, and then it died. And then I was the one that brought it back in. So I feel like I've done my contribution in that, and I did it nationwide. I trained people to do that. And so I worked with people that because of my background, it helped me to get people that were like, you know, women that didn't work -- some of them were widows, some of them divorced -- and they had never worked, and so I put them to work and it really helped me in getting real solid, good people in my team, in the people that worked for me. I had 70 people working for me, and they were all fantastic, and they are very dedicated, because they were housewives, and they had never worked in their whole lives. Some of them are still doing it. And the one Italian lady, she had never worked, her husband passed away, and when she was really feeling bad about it. And so I got her to doing it, and she did it. But I learned a lot. When I just say that that, I learned a lot in. I think sometimes we were such a small little town and everybody was just real backwards. When I would come back, I would see that. See, I would see that more every time I come back and say, "Oh my God." One time I went to a reunion for the church, and I seen this girl and my son was coming to college here at ASU, and she had a daughter, and I said to her, "Oh, Viola, I wish that you could get my Stanley and your daughter together. I'd like for them to meet kids from here, now that he's going to ASU." And she said to me, "I don't want my daughter to go with somebody that's not full-blooded Mexican." And I just. . . . I just like was shocked, and I said, "What do you mean?!" And when she came from New Mexico, I befriended her and I introduced her to all my group, all my friends. And then when she said that, I was just shocked, and I said, "Well, you know what, Viola? I'm really sorry that you never grew up. I'm really sorry that you're still backwards in your way of thinking, because people are people, and I'm sorry that you really didn't get to go beyond that, because my son, I'm just as proud of him being Mexican as I am proud of him being Irish." I said, "He is a person just like you and I are. Of ALL people, I never thought you would think that way, because when you came from New Mexico a lot of people used to tease you because you were from New Mexico, and I never treated you that way. But that's okay, everybody to their own. . . ." But see, you even have it within. And when I got married, I got a lot of. . . . Because he wasn't Mexican, I got a lot of hurts. I went to a party one time, and this old man came up to me and he said, "What's this I hear you married a gringo? You didn't find a Mexican good enough for you?" And I was just like, (laughing) "Huh?!" I was just a little girl! I just didn't know, you know. I mean, it really hurt, because this was an old family friend, but his hostility came out on me. I mean, he really thought that that was the worst thing that I ever did. And I hate to say (laughing) but I don't want to even see him, because he'd probably say, "See, I told you so!" But no, my divorce was something different, nothing to do with that.

MATSCH: Since we were talking about the Spanish, let's talk a little bit about -- not IN Spanish -- it was spoken in all the homes in the barrio?

HORMELL: Yeah.

MATSCH: Were they all bilingual, or were there some that they didn't speak English?

HORMELL: No, they were all bilingual. By the time. . . . The grandmas weren't bilingual, they were all Spanish. But see, the families lived together at that time. It wasn't bad if the grandmother lived with the daughter and all that. The grandmother, let's say the figurehead of the family, or the grandfather, spoke Spanish only. And then the kids, my mom's generation, which was [born] in 1900, 1910, they were bilingual. And then we were bilingual. So it was always spoken. In respect we always spoke Spanish for the elders, in respect to them. But when we were out in public, we always spoke English.

MATSCH: So when you kids played together in the neighborhood. . . .

HORMELL: We spoke Spanish. And actually, what we spoke was Span-English, because if we didn't know the word in Spanish we'd just throw the English word on. So in our language, in our way of speaking, the slang way, we made up in our own words. If we couldn't say it in Spanish, we'd say it in English, and vice-versa. And so we did kind of create our own Spanish-English kind of thing. (laughs)

MATSCH: Okay, so now when the kids got to school, they all knew English -- there weren't special classes for kids that didn't really know English very well?

HORMELL: Well, I remember when I came to school, I didn't know any English at all, but I picked it up like that.

MATSCH: Was there a special class for you?

HORMELL: No. I remember I went to Tempe Grammar, and sitting there and listening to her, and see, because my grandmother was teaching me Spanish, I remember that ir, I-R, is a Spanish word. And I asked the teacher, and she said, "No, no, that's not a word." And I said, "But I KNOW it's a word." And then she said, "No, it is not a word, and don't interrupt me." And I said, "Okay." So then I just never interrupted, but I remember it so clearly, because I questioned that. But no, I spoke only Spanish and so did a lot of my friends. They spoke Spanish so that we could learn the language and learn it fluently, and then we spoke the English at school. That way, when we came in, we really. . . . Actually, when you stop and think about it, we really had to, like I said, push harder than the average kid, because we had to learn a language foreign to us, and then we had to keep up with the kids that were -- well, they were ahead of us, because they read already in English, and probably their mothers were reading stories to them. We were being read stories in Spanish, but not in English. But as I see it in the generations back, if I would have done that with my children, then they would have the two languages. But that was something that I had to give up: Do I teach my kids Spanish and have them be bilingual? Or should I just make sure that they master the English? And at that time, the way that I was feeling, I wanted them to master the English so that nobody would ever treat them any different, because they were just persons and not a nationality or anything. I wanted them to be themselves and not labeled. And so then that's my way of doing things, and I'm pretty sure that a lot of my friends thought the same thing, because most of my friends didn't teach their kids Spanish. And although, like even Elias, he teaches Spanish, my girlfriend Delores Esquer, she's a bilingual teacher, and yet her kids don't know that much Spanish. And her father and mother both are Hispanics. And it wasn't because. . . . I had my mother-in-law living with me in Florida, and so she used to get mad if I started speaking Spanish to the kids, because she thought that I was talking about her. So I leave one thing here and I go to another, and it was in a family, and she lived with me for five years, so that was the foundation of MY kids when they were learning, before they go into school. So I regret that I didn't teach them, to this day, because especially them living in Florida, and three of them live over there, Spanish is very prominent over there and they could deal with a lot of jobs better. Well, they have good jobs, but you know what I mean. (phone rings, tape turned off and on)

MATSCH: Did you have any kind of a newspaper in East Tempe for the citizens of the barrios?

HORMELL: Unt-uh, I don't remember any.

MATSCH: You were dependent on the Tempe. . . .

HORMELL: Tempe Daily News was the only. . . .

MATSCH: How did news travel in the barrios? (laughter)

HORMELL: Word of mouth. We didn't even have phones. We were the first ones to have a phone in the Barrio Mickey Mouse. And that wasn't until I went to work at that United Loan.

MATSCH: And what year was that?

HORMELL: [In] '57. I graduated in '56.

MATSCH: They just didn't run any lines in for you?

HORMELL: I think we had to pay to run those lines. I think Chester Miller, on the corner, he had, and then they ran those lines to us. There weren't any lines there in Mickey Mouse, but once we started, then other people started getting them, so maybe that's what it was.

MATSCH: When ASU took over the barrios, was it piecemeal? They took over one and then another? And what year did they start taking them over?

HORMELL: (sigh) That was like in '55 they started taking some spots. And then all of a sudden everybody -- you either moved or you were condemned, so it wasn't a choice. A lot of our elderly people that had, like I said, that property paid for and all that, a lot of them went through a lot of anxiety and hardships to accept the fact that that was their. . . . My grandmother was one of them, she even had a slight stroke over it, because that was our community and our way of life. And they just came in and said, "If you're not selling, we'll condemn it, and we'll get it."

MATSCH: Were there people living between the buttes where the stadium is now? Were there houses in there?

HORMELL: Not between the buttes, but we were in front of the buttes. Mickey Mouse was in front of the small little butte -- that was our back yard, that little butte.

MATSCH: Okay, but no houses were located between the two buttes where the church had been?

HORMELL: No. Once that was gone, that was gone -- nothing was there in the middle. We used to go and play there, _______ like a background. You said about parks -- (laughing) that was our park, probably, the buttes. That was free for everybody -- dangerous, but free.

MATSCH: Did the people feel that they were given a fair price?

HORMELL: No, they weren't. Some might have felt, because they didn't have that much to begin with, you know, and it sounded like a lot of money, but it really, really wasn't.

MATSCH: If it was condemned, would they have gotten anything?

HORMELL: I don't know how that works, but I know that that was a fear that they put into them, that if it was condemned, then they're going to have to tear it down anyway, so you couldn't live there anyway -- that type of. . . . I remember when they came to talk to my mom -- I remember it real clearly -- it was Mr. Oakley. His wife was a teacher at Tempe High, Mrs. Oakley. And I remember that he came over and told my mom and my grandma, and my grandma was very, very upset, because, see, all that was her income that was coming in: all those little rentals that she had was her income. Plus the house was paid for. Actually, it was one, two, three, four. . . . By that time she only had four houses -- she had five at one time.

MATSCH: How old was she, by the way?

HORMELL: My grandma? Well, that was in '55 and she was born in 1886, I think.

MATSCH: So that would have been 69, 68, I think.

HORMELL: Uh-huh. And then her and my mom, they sold the house and then they bought in Una Avenue but it wasn't the same -- everybody just had gone their separate ways.

MATSCH: Did they pay for moving expenses?

HORMELL: Oh no, no!

MATSCH: It was just, "This is for the house. . . ."

HORMELL: "This is for the house," yeah. No, they didn't consider us for anything. It was, "Get rid of those Mexicans, this is what we want to do." And this is how we felt. This is why whenever there's a project for ASU, we sort of like. . . . We remember what happened to our families and what they went through, and I'm not really that happy to be working for, like that Rodriguez house [Elias-Rodriguez House], when they said they were going to make it for the ASU historical thing, and I thought, "No, if they want that, then they can do it, because we don't want to do anything like that. We don't want to work with something that hurt us a long time ago." Not US -- well, it hurt us in the long run -- but it hurt our grandparents and our parents.

MATSCH: Of course the City of Tempe hasn't treated you fairly, either, for a long time.

HORMELL: No, the City of Tempe DIDN'T treat us at all good, either.

MATSCH: But you've been very gracious about helping with the Barrio exhibit.

HORMELL: And you know, because that's the reason that I have that: not for US, but I think that our relatives, our forefathers, really, really contributed a lot that was never said. If you ever read history books, Arizona history books, they always said, "The Mexican this, the Mexican that," and we read that and we said, "We have to find the names of these Mexicans that did that, and that did this. Why are their names not there?" And so that's the reason, really, that we have motivated so many people, is because they all feel the same way. In OUR generation we feel it stronger, because we feel like if we want to contribute something, we'd better do it NOW, because OUR kids don't even know some of our history. Or they are moved away and they have their own lives. It's up to us to really carry on what they did, and they did contribute a lot, and they were just the unsung heroes, and I just feel like, you know, we were part of this growth of the state, and of Tempe, and we LOVE Tempe. It's probably like you like Nogales, it's imbredded in you, it's part of you. I live in Mesa, but I wish that I could afford (laughs) to live in Tempe! When I was buying my home, single person, I wanted to get a home that had payments that I could afford, and then come later on, I sold my house and then I paid off my house. But I didn't know that. . . .

END TAPE THREE, SIDE ONE

BEGIN TAPE THREE, SIDE TWO

MATSCH: So now we're talking about ASU. When ASU said, "Here's your money, we want you out," there was nobody to help you relocate at all?

HORMELL: Unt-uh, nobody helped us relocate, and it was like "you HAVE to do it." I always feel like it was like, you know (chuckles and imitates Nazi German accent) "You VILL do it!" (laughs) That type of thing. But our people didn't speak up. Our people, in that generation, accepted every crap -- pardon the expression -- but everything that was thrown at them, they would accept. They were beautiful people, they were very humble people. They just accepted it, instead of questioning, "Well, why?! Why can't you plan somewhere else?" Or, "Let's get US in the plan," like we would today, but in those days they COULDN'T. What I'm saying right now, I couldn't even, if I was in their generation, I probably couldn't even speak my piece, either. You were closed. . . . I feel like all the doors were closed because you were, you know, Hispanic. And some doors were closed because you were Catholic! And some doors were closed because you were a woman! I said, "My gosh, we really have a lot of things closed." I don't know, I just feel like sometimes I catch myself sounding like a little rebel, that I'm NOT -- but I just feel like there was a lot of injustice done, and SOMEBODY has to talk about it. And like I said, a good friend of mine that's Jewish said the same thing. If she didn't talk about the Holocaust, nobody would care about it or know about it or even dream that it happened. And these things DID happen here, and it was very narrow-minded people that did it. They're dead, they're gone, but so are our people that suffered that. But you know, now hopefully it's not like that. I don't see it as bad as it was. Once in a while you get a little. . . . You know, like my friend says he goes shopping, and if he goes into a little card shop, sometimes because he's Mexican, they follow him. You know, that type of thing. And so we still get those little kind of things, and I think, "Ooo! it just burns me up to hear him think." The other day he was in church at Mount Carmel -- I'm going to talk to the Father there and tell him, because he's not aware -- this is a new priest that's there that's running the church now -- but this Chinese couple turned around to say "peace be with you," and the woman wouldn't extend her hand. This is a stout, you know, a Catholic that's been there for years and years, and she's just too good to shake hands with the person next to them, because they're Chinese, Japanese, or whatever they are -- they're Oriental, and to her it's just going to be something's. . . . But you see, we still have some of those narrow-headed people that will be there until they die. And it's [up to] us to make the change.

MATSCH: Now, back to ASU. (laughter) Alright, so now you have to move out. Did you have real estate agents coming out of the woods to take your money, to help you find homes? Were people taking advantage of you?

HORMELL: I think so. I think that there was a lot. And because a lot of them didn't know how to manage their money, or know what they were talking about, they really got taken in a lot of situations. The homes that some of them got were not the greatest of homes for the money.

MATSCH: The Church didn't come forward and help you at all?

HORMELL: No.

MATSCH: And the City of Tempe?

HORMELL: Oh no. No, they were probably the same guys that were running this part, or funding the ASU part, too.

MATSCH: (unclear) I think ASU kind of does what it wants.

HORMELL: No, ASU. . . . My mother told me a long time ago, ASU was a city within a city. And they did, way back then -- like I told you about raping the girls and all that -- it was real hush-hush -- they could do no wrong, way back then in the early hundreds [1900s].

MATSCH: You didn't mention this. [See Tape One, page 29]

HORMELL: Oh, I think I did in the beginning where my mother said that. . . . My mother used to tell me that young Mexican girls were very scared of walking, they had to always have a chaperon with them, because if they walked by themselves and some guy from ASU got them and raped them, they would do nothing.

MATSCH: As a student?

HORMELL: As a student, they were like protected, they were the gods of Tempe. The people, we had nothing. Number one, they didn't have the money to go and get a lawyer and fight for themselves, so what are they going to do? Nothing. They learned to do nothing, because everything, all the doors were closed for them.

MATSCH: And the City of Tempe, did they patrol your area at all?

HORMELL: I NEVER remember seeing a patrol car in my area, in the Mickey Mouse area. Maybe they did it in. . . . And I don't even remember seeing it on Sixth Street where Clara lived. I think they just patrolled -- College Avenue was their furthest. I don't think they ever patrolled our ________. I don't remember seeing them, now that you mention it.

MATSCH: What if there was a crime committed in a barrio? Then what? Would they come and investigate that? Or did they just. . . .

HORMELL: Usually in those days the most things that they did was the drinking, and a lot of them didn't drive because. . . . And everybody accepted them as the town drunks and they didn't do nothing about it. The beating of the wives, you know, because there was like one guy that whenever he got drunk -- like in MY barrio, just speaking about MY barrio -- my grandmother would grab the lady and the kids and keep them at the house until he settled down, and then he could go back. Then they went back to the house and everything was clear. But I remember many a night -- I remember one time I complained to my grandma about them taking our bed, and she said that God wouldn't want us to be closing the door to him, like, you know, that little picture where God is knocking at the door? And he said, "You cannot be unfair. These people need the bed more than you do. You can give it up for one day." And that's how she used to be. So she was a neat lady. And we were just taught, "This is it! You do it the way. . . . This is MY home, and I'm giving it to this woman for her to stay here." And ALL her little kids -- I remember she had like five little kids, and they'd sleep on the floor with us, and she'd sleep in the bed. And even my grandmother slept on a cot to give her the bed. He would beat her up real bad. But they sort of like took care of themselves. I don't remember really having any -- there was no murders or anything like that. There was none. I remember nothing big going. . . . I think one time -- and this was before MY time, my girlfriend's cousin and uncle went out with this Anglo girl and she was loose and she did it with everybody, but because she did it with Mexicans, they put them in Florence, and she claimed rape. But it was because the father was mad that she did it with Mexicans, not because the girl. . . . The girl just liked to do it (chuckles), you know. In those days it was very unusual to find a girl that was really willing and able. And so anyway, that's what happened. And for years and years they spent most of their young lives in prison for this girl that was nothing but a little prostitute, really. But because she was Anglo and they were Mexican, they got the raw end of the deal. And everybody knew it, and everybody felt real bad for them, and we prayed for them, because I remember my grandmother praying for them and making us pray for them. But we, never . . . nobody, they didn't rebel. They just accepted that that's what it was. That's one of the things I keep questioning: Why didn't they SAY something? Why didn't they get in a group and say, "NO MORE!" You know, they didn't -- they TOOK it. Why did they take it for so long? I don't know. But it was not until the '60s when really the people started speaking up and saying, "No, we don't want it that way. Why are you treating us that way?" Or questioning, you know.

MATSCH: Did you feel that way when you were growing up here? Did you resent how your community was being treated?

HORMELL: Yeah, deep down I did.

MATSCH: But YOU didn't do anything _____________.

HORMELL: I didn't do anything, I was just a little girl. And then I got married. I got married at eighteen and I moved away, and then my world was different over there.

MATSCH: And what about your mother? I mean, trying to make a go of things.

HORMELL: My mom really suffered a lot, because she was like the man, like I told you, and she had to go to work in the mill. But see, the men there respected her a lot because she was the only woman working there -- for the longest time she was the only girl working there at that mill. Mexican men are very respectful. I mean, now, maybe not. I know that this generation is . . . really bad. Some of them just talk back to the parents and everything. But in those days they respected the woman, they held us up high. And my mom worked there, they never cussed in front of her. You know, they treated her like if it was their sister. And when I was growing up, all the boys that I went out with, they were very respectful. They would never say a cuss word in front of us, or a dirty joke. If they were saying something kind of raunchy, they would, you know, say. . . . Like many times, because I hung around with all my friends there in the neighborhood, and they'd say, "Irene, this is not for a girl." Then I would walk away, and I knew they were talking about whatever they wanted to talk about. But there was that kind of a bond, but respect too. They looked out for us. This boy that I was telling you about that I talked to him about not quitting school, he always protected me. Nobody better ever say anything about Irene, because I was like a sister to him. He just, you know, "Hey, about Irene, you're not going to talk." You know, something like that. But that was kind of like a bond. But there was no gangs or no, you know, none of that.

MATSCH: Do you remember drugs at all?

HORMELL: No, drugs didn't come. . . . They said that there was pot for years and years, because they said that even. . . . But see, I was like kind of blind, because I'd never seen that. I'm a little Pisces flowing here and there, and I didn't really know that pot was going on. But that was the only bad part, is the pot and they drank. But I think they drank from frustration because they couldn't get ahead, they couldn't. . . . Now that I'm a working woman and I see how hard it is to hold a job and worry about your bills and all that, I can imagine they really went through a lot, these parents of ours: holding a job, wife didn't work -- some of them later on started working -- but wife didn't work, all the kids that they had, and gosh, it was a big load on their shoulders. So I guess they drank to just make life easier or something, I don't know. But that's really what I remember in my neighborhood. I think I could just say two or three people in the neighborhood, we knew that they were smoking pot, marijuana.

MATSCH: I know in Nogales it was very accepted that the men would have mistresses or girlfriends on the side. Did they bring that type of tradition with them up here when they. . . .

HORMELL: There was, and that was accepted. And it was just like, you know, "Why?" But you asked yourself, and that was just accepted. That was just (sigh) the machoism and whatever. That was just accepted. When my mom and dad got divorced, I remember my dad telling her that he had this young girl that he wanted to marry, and my mom said, "Go with her and stay with her, but don't divorce. I'll wait for you until you decide to come back." And (laughs) it was like, that's anger in me, "Ma, what did you do that for?!" But that was her way. You know, she felt like he wants to have his little fling, let him have it, but he'll come back to me, we have a family. Now my grandmother and my grandfather, my grandfather wanted to move to California and that. My grandmother was stronger than my mom, my grandmother said, "Adios. You go your way, and I'll stay here. This is where I have my home, my boys are going to be raised here, my daughters are going to be raised here, and you go to California. If you want to work in the fields, that's your thing." And she didn't go. But that's why he used to hit her and beat her up, because my grandmother would speak up!

MATSCH: She wasn't going to let him kidnap her one more time!

HORMELL: No! One more time, she had enough!

MATSCH: Do you remember him at all? Did you ever meet your grandpa?

HORMELL: No, I think he died the year that I was born. I think he died then. And I always heard bad things about him, because my grandmother (laughs) hated him. But at the end when she was dying, she said, "Well, he wasn't THAT bad." I guess she just was trying to make peace with him before she died. But he was. He used to drink and beat her and the children.

MATSCH: How did your mom feel about him?

HORMELL: My mom never wanted to talk about it, and when she was dying she mentioned the fact that he -- she said one day crying, "He was very mean to me, he was very mean." And my aunt, also. My aunt had a big gash here where he hit her, because my aunt, she was the oldest, and my aunt was very kind of a regal person. She was very. . . never would want to work in the fields, and she used to tell him, "I was born, but not to work in the fields. I'll work here and I'll wash and I'll iron and I'll do anything, but I will NOT go to the fields." And she wouldn't. She had sinus problems, and she couldn't work in the fields. But in those days you didn't tell your parents you couldn't, so because she was, they claimed, "mouthy," she got hit. And so when she was dying she also showed me -- when they get older, you know how their skin gets? (MATSCH: Uh-huh.) And she had a big gash here. And I said, "(gasp) Tia, what happened there?!" And then she said, "Oh, mi hija, I don't even want to talk about it." I said, "Well, if you don't want to talk about it. . . ." And she said, "That's one of the marks that your grandfather left me, because I didn't want to go out in the fields and work in the fields. Your mother never got in trouble with your grandpa because your mother ALWAYS went." My mother was always treated like a boy. She always went and did these hard things. She could fix a car. My dad just left us on the ranch and he went over there to his cattle and his girlfriends, and my mother took the ranch over and she just handled everything. I remember we used to have a car that you had to crank it, and then she'd run to the car and then start it. I mean, but everybody in those days had, I guess, that kind of car. But now that I think back, you know, all those things, she really did a lot for us, my mom, to keep us going so that we didn't have to work as hard as she did.

MATSCH: When did she get married again?

HORMELL: She got married in 19--, I think, --30, because in 1932 Helen was born.

MATSCH: Wait, that's the first marriage, to your dad, was in 1930?

HORMELL: No, in 1928 she got married with my dad. And then in 1952 she got married with my stepdad. Oh, he was a beautiful person. He was very colorful, and he worked at the mill. He taught many of my friends now, he taught them how to be truck drivers and good workers. (MATSCH: Oh really?) He took pride in teaching them how to be good workers and not lazy, you know. He really set Fleming -- Organization Fleming, you know, the warehouse over there -- they got a whole group of people from the ones that he trained, and they got good workers out of them.

MATSCH: What did he do at the mill?

HORMELL: He was a truck driver for them, and did sales.

MATSCH: Was he from Tempe?

HORMELL: He was from Tempe, and from an old family, Leon. He was an orphan at nine, actually raised himself. His story sort of was like a Tom Sawyer kind of thing. And he worked all his life, since nine years old when his mom died and his dad remarried and they didn't want him. He had a sister, and he went and lived with them for a little bit, but she was married and they were having kids, so they didn't want him either. So he was just going. . . . He just took care of himself. He worked, cut wood for people, and he just took care of himself. But he was a BEAUTIFUL person and a very good, hard-working person. And actually, he was a blessing to us. And now I think, "Gosh, Mom had four mouthy daughters, and spoiled brats, really. And here he comes and marries her and raises us." And you know, Charlene was just a little girl when my dad left Mom, and he raised her 'til she got married, and the same way with me -- well, ALL of us, really. But he was always there for us.

MATSCH: Did your grandmother like him?

HORMELL: Yeah, he was so cute. But see, my grandmother, I told you, was very religious, and she always used to say when we hear somebody say a bad word, always to ask for forgiveness for them, underneath your breath, you know. And then one day when she came here -- my mom got married with Gene -- I said, "Nana, I'm tired of saying 'God have mercy.' I say it all the time because he keeps on saying bad words." Because he came from his own life, his vocabulary was different (laughing) than my dad's. My dad never said a bad word in his whole life, and neither did my mom. And so it was very strange to have this person saying bad words. And she said, "Honey, don't worry, he's a good man. When he says a bad word, just say, 'Jesus, mercy on him for ALL the words he's gonna say,' and that'll cover it all." (laughs) But no, she liked him. At first she was kind of leery, but then she liked him because he was a good person and a normal person.

MATSCH: Well, Irene, I've kept you almost three hours here. Is there anything that you would like to say that fifty years from now when somebody's trying to understand early Tempe that might give them some insight into what it was like?

HORMELL: The thing that I want to say is that although we did go through hardships, and all the negatives that I told you about, I think that it made us better persons, it gave us a more positive view on what WE wanted to do for the future, and what we want to continue to do for the future, and the love of our town was not marred by people that ran it, that didn't have the conception that WE had, but that we still love our -- we have, all of us -- I mean, when I speak literally -- all of the group that my old friends from high school -- AND Mount Carmel -- we have that bond that I don't think can be experienced by a lot of people. And I'm very proud to say that I am from that group and that we do have that bond. And maybe with all the bad experiences that we suffered, it has sort of, like, made us better people. And maybe that we can, with this history, you're giving us a history to put it in the record of who these Mexicans that were mentioned, now they have names. And that's real important to us. That's one of the reasons that my MAIN goal in life is to work for the Tempe Historical Museum, the way that I'm doing now, the volunteer work that I'm putting in. I love it, I want to do everything possible, for not just MY family to be recorded, but all the other families, because every family that was in Tempe at that time, all the families, rich or poor, poorer than others, knew the new families that came in, the old families that were there -- they all contributed to make our unity and our bond. That kind of thing just doesn't erase. It's good for other people to know that we did suffer, and that [we'd] like to continue for them to know that part, because that did exist. But also for us to go forward and not have that. In other words, our generation, that we can change it, and I think we have -- that we SEE it, because our children are mingled with other cultures and it doesn't matter to us, as much as it did even in our families and in our backgrounds, because there was also, you know, both ways -- there was prejudice both ways. And I think that by doing this, and all the other people that get interviewed, have that in mind, that they are contributing for their families, so that their families will be recorded. I hope that you can get a whole bunch of them (MATSCH: I do too.) because it's important, it's really important. They're so special, all of them. I wrote a little book, an autobiography for my class one time, and mentioned all the people that were the ones that formed my life. A lot of them were from the ranch, that beautiful life over there, and then the beautiful life in the barrio, and I feel very lucky that I was in both worlds before I went into the BIG world away from home, to Miami, Florida! (laughs) I experienced differences there, too, for the fact that I was from a little home town to a big town. It was exciting and everything, but it was different being away from home, being secure and safe, and you know, in your own little community. But I thank you.

MATSCH: Thank you very much, I've enjoyed it.

END TAPE THREE, SIDE TWO

END OF INTERVIEW