Barrios Oral History Project

Narrator: JOSIE ORTEGA SANCHEZ
Interviewer: RICHARD NEARING
Date of Interview: June 23, 1992
Interview Number: OH - 126

Josie Ortega Sanchez was born in Needles, California in 1925. She came to Tempe as an infant and has lived here all of her life. She is the daughter of Jose V. Ortega and Manuela Nunez Ortega, who were both born in Chihuahua, Mexico, and came to the United States during the Mexican Revolution, about 1920. She married Robert L. Sanchez in Tempe in 1948.

In this interview, she talks about her parents, the house that she grew up in, and their neighborhood, Barrio al Altito, which was located near the site of Sun Devil Stadium. She also discusses work that her father did during the Depression and the Fiestas Patrias that were held in Tempe in the 1930s.


FULL TEXT TRANSCRIPT

Copyright © 1998 Tempe Historical Museum

BEGIN SIDE ONE

NEARING: . . . with Josie Ortega Sanchez. The date is June 23, 1992. One of the first things I wanted to ask you in taking information from your write-up that you have provided us, eight pages of wonderful, great information (SANCHEZ: Thank you.) was about Ben Taylor, because I used to live across the street from Ben Taylor, and that name popped up right away, so I would like to ask you what you may know about Ben.

SANCHEZ: Well, I really didn't even MEET Mr. Taylor -- my father worked for him, and that was it. I know that he was an irrigator for Mr. Taylor, and how far back the Taylors go, I don't know. It might be that Mr. Taylor was the father of the rest of the family, you know, I don't know. But anyway, my father never believed in his family living on the ranches. He wanted his children to grow up in what was then a town, in Tempe, and be close to schools and everything else that was available. He wanted a different exposure than ranch life. So I never got to meet Mr. Taylor.

NEARING: I'd like to take one minute now, and make sure that we are recording.

SANCHEZ: Alright. (Tape recorder turned off and on)

NEARING: Josie, the second name that appeared was L. D. Crook. I personally had not heard that name before, but that doesn't really mean anything, so could you tell us about Mr. Crook?

SANCHEZ: Well, Mr. Crook was also a rancher, and my father pretty much did the same thing -- he was the irrigator there. And I don't remember whether he milked the cows, because Mr. Crook had a great deal of milking cows. Mr. Crook actually was very involved with the functions of the City of Tempe. I believe he was the City Manager, the earliest that I can recall. He might have been something more, and maybe involved as a City Councilman, I don't know. Then when he retired, his son, or his son-in-law, Mr. Ed Daley also became the City Manager. It seems to me there has always been a Daley, or some descendant of Mr. Crook working for the City of Tempe. The last one that I'm aware of was Bud Daley, and he retired maybe three or four years ago. He was a . . . Mr. Crook was a very, very kind man. He was very generous to our family. He had the appearance of being a very stern man, but in reality he was very kind- hearted. I knew that he helped us many times by giving my father chickens, by providing my brothers and sisters and myself with milk. And he . . . I don't know what we would have done without his help. And my father always praised him highly as being the one that helped us the most when we really needed it.

NEARING: Sounds like a real wonderful man.

SANCHEZ: Yes. I must say that this was all happening during the Depression era.

NEARING: Speaking of the Depression, I noticed that you had information about it --that your father worked for the WPA [Works Progress Administration].

SANCHEZ: Yes, yes. After my father stopped working in the ranches, the farmlands around the area, he was able to get a position with the WPA. The job involved cleaning ditches and menial jobs. This was offered to all the people in the neighborhood.

NEARING: You say "menial jobs," but what did you mean? I mean, do you recall what type of work he might have done?

SANCHEZ: The most that I can recall was I remember my father and some of the neighborhood people were cleaning out the irrigation ditches in Tempe, because they had open irrigation in those years. I recall my father talking about working when they were building the Tempe Bridge [Mill Avenue Bridge]. What position he had in that, I don't know. Also, I believe he worked -- and I THINK this was under the WPA -- he worked with the remodeling of the old Casa Loma Hotel.

NEARING: Oh! That's interesting. You also said in your write-up about a water sprinkler system. I wasn't quite sure -- what did it do, and what did it provide?

SANCHEZ: Okay, back in the '30s, maybe the late '20s and the mid '30s, Mr. Varela, Crecensio Varela ran the sprinkler system. What he did is, he drove a water tank through the dirt streets in our barrio, and he and his boys would come every morning and sprinkle the roads to keep the dust down -- keeping in mind too, that back in those days, there were very few paved streets, particularly in the barrios. So this was the job that they had through the City of Tempe.

NEARING: Now did you . . . did your parents still have the car, the Model "T" Ford that you came from Needles, California, in?

SANCHEZ: Oh Lord no! That just fell apart. And if I remember correctly, I think my dad converted it into. . . . No, he traded it for an old pickup that he used to haul wood and things like that, to help us survive. He would sell wood, and he would bring it for the family use too.

NEARING: You had wood stoves then?

SANCHEZ: Oh yes, there was nothing else.

NEARING: What about light in your home? ______________.

SANCHEZ: I recall my mother had kerosene lamps in the house. And I remember that she used to send me to buy the oil and bring it home. And I was always playing around. We had a tin can with a spout on it, and I'd be walking along by the canal, and the greatest thrill in life for me was to pour the gas or oil into the water and see those BEAUTIFUL colors just spread on the surface of the water. And I can tell you right now, I received quite a few spankings for my treats! (laughter)

NEARING: Oh boy! The name Lambeye appeared in your article.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

NEARING: What did he do or ______?

SANCHEZ: Mr. Lambeye was a Frenchman, I believe. He didn't do much for Tempe other than own properties here in Tempe. When my parents moved from Needles, California, over here, they rented one of his little "apartments," let's call it. And my parents lived there forever, really, until the time that the University purchased the land that the houses were located on. During the Depression era, my father was given the job of collecting the rents and seeing to it that if the place was vacated, someone else moved in. Because Mr. Lambeye was losing money on the property -- because I think he charged five dollars a month, rent, and some people didn't HAVE the money to pay -- so he was actually losing money, he talked my father into purchasing the property. The property that he owned was quite large. I forgot how many lots were involved, but it was barren land, and only the place that my parents lived in, that was the . . . where the houses were located. Well, my father reached an agreement with Mr. Lambeye and then assumed the responsibility of collecting. And then in the end, he purchased the property, paying like five dollars a month on his lien, until he paid it all. I think that the property cost my dad $200. He didn't purchase the entire piece of land. What they did, he helped Mr. Lambeye subdivide it and they sold the lots to different people in the neighborhood. And they, too, had to pay five dollars a month, but my father assumed the responsibility of collecting. It was a nice neighborhood, it wasn't a luxurious neighborhood by no means -- what we call luxurious nowadays -- it was a poor man's area. But it was considered one of the better barrios in Tempe. So we were quite happy living there, all of us. The neighbors were like family to us, and we to them.

NEARING: They helped each other, you helped each other to survive.

SANCHEZ: To survive, that's right, yes.

NEARING: You also talk about a grocery that was located on the corner of Center and Seventh Streets.

SANCHEZ: That's correct.

NEARING: I'm not sure I recall Center. I thought Center was in Mesa.

SANCHEZ: No, we did have a short -- it must have been about -- let's see, it was just in our neighborhood, if I remember correctly -- and it extended from Fifth Street to what was then known [as] Eighth Street, which is now considered University. Okay, it was just a very small little street. Seventh Street extended all the way into the front of our house. So Center was the first street heading west from where we lived. And that store was owned by some Chinese people -- mostly the ones that I was acquainted with were the men, because they ran the store. And very little was known about them. And I think I mentioned in my memoirs that one of them committed suicide.

NEARING: Yes, you did.

SANCHEZ: And it was -- if I may elaborate a little bit about my feelings, keeping in mind that I must have been about eight years old, and I was a very impressionable child with a vivid imagination, so all kinds of thoughts ran through my mind when this was happening. And the man was found hanging in one of the beams in I guess what we call now a carport. And so I remember being terrified after that, having to go to the store for my mother, because I kept imagining that the man was still hanging there, and all kinds of peculiar thoughts ran through my mind. But it was quite a shock for the entire neighborhood. So that's something that I recall.

NEARING: Now, this grocery store, was this, do they sell meat and everything else?

SANCHEZ: Yeah. It was . . . let's call it a "7-Eleven." (chuckles) A Mexican 7-Eleven owned by Chinese. (laughs)

NEARING: Okay. Were there many Chinese people around Tempe at that time?

SANCHEZ: That I can remember, no. No. Those were the only ones that I was aware of. However, let me backtrack, I, per se, cannot say there were more, but an oldtimer was telling me, when he read my memoirs, was telling me that there used to be another Chinese person that had a store up on University, or Eighth Street, way down. But I don't recall -- that was before my time.

NEARING: Okay. When you were a child here, after you arrived in Tempe, what did you do to have fun here?

SANCHEZ: Well, you know, back in those days, you created your own fun, you created your own amusements. And since we lived in this LARGE property, and there was a fence all around this barren land that was owned by Mr. Lambeye, we could play in that land. We could not go over the fence, because God help us, my mother would really spank us for that. So we used to create our own things. We would go out and pick little what we called tomatitos from the bushes that grew on the land. It was a little tiny, tiny fruit that was like a little cherry tomato, but in NO way did it compare to that in size. And we used to nibble on that. My brothers would build little things, you know. And I mostly took care of my younger brothers and sisters. I helped my mother a great deal in that, because there were ten of us. So in my spare time I would go out and play like that. We didn't have television or radio or anything else in those days -- we couldn't have afforded them anyway. So this was our form of entertainment. We created our own games. We fought a little -- my mother was always there to see that we changed our ways. But there was no -- no one took it upon themselves to come over and see to it that we were having a good time, it was up to us.

NEARING: You said you created your own games. What kind of games did you play?

SANCHEZ: Now, you're asking me to think back a long, long ways. I can't recall all the games that we played. A lot of it was wrestling in the grass, because there was grass and weeds there. We did that, and then we played house. My mother would save us the old tin cans and the lids from the jars and things like that. We didn't have any dishes. And we made believe a lot -- fantasized, you might say. And so that was our amusement. Plus in the evenings, THAT was our treat, THAT was our television for us -- my father, like I mentioned before, my father would come home, and he would read us stories. Of course this was all done in Spanish, so I learned all about Snow White, Little Red Riding Hood, the Count of Monte Cristo, and it was all in Spanish. And a lot of it my father memorized it, he told the stories to us by memory. No matter how tired he was, we always had that treat at night.

NEARING: Did you have certain hours that you had, like a curfew or something? You could play 'til such-and-such a time. . . .

SANCHEZ: Yes. Yes, sir! By seven o'clock, we had to start thinking about bed. And of course this we didn't mind, because we knew my dad was going to be there to read the Count of Monte Cristo -- he read that. But Snow White and the Seven Dwarves and all that, we LIVED for that. So when Mother said, "It's bedtime!" we didn't complain, because we knew Dad would be there to read us the stories. We lived in a two-bedroom little -- what now would be considered now a shack. We lived in that, with a little kitchen, and then the other one was the bedroom-living room quarters. So there was nothing to do, so we agreed, hey, bed was the best thing that could happen to us, and bedtime story.

NEARING: Great! Did you have to get up early in the morning?

SANCHEZ: As little tiny ones, not toddlers, but before we started school, we could sleep late. My father didn't appreciate that, because he thought we were going to grow up to be worthless (laughs) because he said we didn't do anything but sleep late! But once we started school, we had a certain time to go to bed and a certain time to get up. And that was routine for us.

NEARING: You also stated about the fiesta parties.

SANCHEZ: Oh, boy, that. . . .

NEARING: Tell me about those, elaborate.

SANCHEZ: In order to really appreciate it, you had to be there, but I'll do the best I can. These functions were created by different interested Mexican people, and we had a minister, Methodist minister, Reverend Munoz and his wife, Sara. The year that I recall most clearly, was the year that I was involved in it. I must have been maybe ten years old. And it was -- the fiestas were held at the old City Hall. I don't know if you were here during that time.

NEARING: No.

SANCHEZ: Okay. The City Hall was an old, majestic building, with huge pillars in front, and it was all white, and it had huge steps on the front. Well, a platform was built over those steps, and they built, they had thrones for the queen, you know. And the queen was selected by popular vote by the Mexican people. They wore elaborate gowns, and beautiful crowns, and beautiful capes. Then they had two princesses that accompanied the queen. The musicians in those days were the Chavarrias: Mr. Paul Chavarria, Sr. I learned, after I wrote my memoirs, that there were some OTHER musicians, but I wasn't involved with them, so I don't recall. They had booths all around the City Hall, very colorful. They had huge lights like they used to have in those days, Christmas lights. And people would sell tamales and things like that -- soda pop. It was a very exciting time in my life, because I've always been the type that enjoys a lot of festivities, a lot of lights and excitement. So I remember going to those fiestas with my parents and listening to the musicians play and all the speeches. Well, that one year Mr. Munoz and his wife selected a poem that I was to recite. It was quite complicated for me -- I was just a little tyke. And I practiced and practiced on it. I thought I had learned it completely. Well, just imagine a small child standing on the stage in front of a microphone and looking at the multitudes just staring at you. I'm telling you, I had to bluff my way through that whole thing. I stood there, when I started, and somehow, I don't know how, I was able to start. And then towards the end, I forgot. But again, I stuttered my way through it. And that's where I learned to bluff my way through life! (laughs)

NEARING: The booths that you said they had -- what did they do? Did they sell things, or. . . .

SANCHEZ: They sold goodies, cotton candy. They sold pop. They sold tamales, tacos -- the usual Mexican little goodies, you know. So. . . . And then some of them had trinkets, little flags and things like that. And then AFTER this was over -- I forgot to include that in my memoirs -- they had a street dance, and Fifth Street from Mill to -- what was it? Myrtle Avenue, they were all open streets then -- to Myrtle, were closed, and people had a street dance. Of course we never stayed for that, but this went on. I knew about that. And I could care less about the dances at that age, you know.

NEARING: I see. What schools did you attend here?

SANCHEZ: I started school at the old Eighth Street School that is now the Tempe Shopping Center [Tempe Center]. There was an old, old school there -- it was a segregated school. And I remember I thought that was the most BEAUTIFUL building when I first saw it. To me it was like a palace. It had two floors. It was very majestic, and here I was, a little kid who had never heard the English language, had never been exposed to the English language. I started school there under Miss Helen C. Roberts, and did I ever get spankings, because Spanish was not allowed in the classroom, and I couldn't communicate in English. So I remember one time as a child I had to do it in my pants because I couldn't communicate. They sent me home. It was a very trying time in my life because I was a very peculiar child in the eyes of other kids, you know, who had been born here and raised with parents who could speak English. And I. . . . We were very poor, and so my clothes were peculiar, too. They were all homemade. I wore the good old Arizona Rose Flour bloomers. So I was an odd kid, and I was often picked on, you know. And I remember one time as a very little kid, I was put on the merry-go-round by some older -- they must have been maybe eighth grade, seventh or eighth graders -- and they put me on the merry-go-round, it was a real old one, and they swung me around as fast as they could. I was the only one on the merry-go-round, sitting right on the center of the merry-go-round. And they kept pushing, swinging it around and around, and I was so frightened I lost control and I flew off the merry-go-round. They were rather cruel to me in those days. And so I really wasn't a happy child there. And one day they took us on a field trip to the old Tempe Grammar School, and I really liked what I saw there. I must have been maybe eight years old, maybe nine, when they took us on. . . . No, I was younger than that, maybe eight years old. And they took us on a field trip, and I liked the school SO much. The very next morning, what did I do? I walked to the old Eighth Street School, and from there I knew the way to the old Tempe Grammar School. And I remember I walked over there, and I was so frightened, because I didn't know what was going to happen to me next. But I knew that I wasn't happy where I was at, and that I had liked the old Tempe Grammar School. Well, I remember sitting on the steps of the school, and the bell rang, and Miss Cosner, Elizabeth Cosner -- I remember that, she was a very stern teacher, she was the best teacher they had in those days -- she saw me through the window of her classroom, and she came out. By this time I was crying, because I was very frightened, and she took me into the principal's office. I was crying, crying, and Mr. McKemy was the principal. So then I was questioned, where did I come from, and all that. So they finally got out of me who my parents were, and they figured that I was from the old Eighth Street School. So my parents were called, and I told my mother right in front of Miss Roberts that I didn't like that school. I was talking in Spanish. So they promised me that the following year I would go to Tempe Grammar School. So I went to Tempe Grammar School and I graduated from there. And I was perfectly happy. T wasn't, uh. . . . I didn't feel as isolated. I wasn't the peculiar kid that I was at the old Eighth Street School.

NEARING: Was the Eighth Street School mostly Mexican?

SANCHEZ: Totally.

NEARING: Totally Mexican.

SANCHEZ: Totally Mexican.

NEARING: So they treated you badly, even. . . .

SANCHEZ: I was a peculiar kid, you know. My mother made me wear an old hat to school, because I had to walk home in the sun, you know. And here I was with my Arizona Flour bloomers stickin' out, you know. So I was a very poor child, and as you well know, children can be very cruel. It may not be intentional, because they're youngsters too. But that caused me a lot of unhappiness.

NEARING: Did you go to high school?

SANCHEZ: No. The reason I didn't go to high school was because my father did not believe in the woman being educated. The woman was put on this Earth -- and my father . . . this may sound very cruel, but this was my father's way of thinking, and it wasn't intended as being cruel -- but he felt that women would grow up, they would marry and raise their families -- that was it. It was good that they knew how to read and write. So for this reason, he didn't push me into going to high school. Secondly, I wasn't that crazy about education in those days. I really didn't care. I felt like a total failure in those days because my brother caught up with me in school, and he was bright, because he learned what I already knew. So I always felt like the backward kid, you know. So I . . . when we graduated, we graduated together, and I had no enthusiasm about continuing. And then my father. . . . (phone rings)

END SIDE ONE

BEGIN SIDE TWO

SANCHEZ: I did obtain my GED as an adult. I was in my forties, and I was working for the State already, so I needed a GED to continue. So I did go to school. I didn't go to school, per se -- I went and took the test, with the encouragement of the counselors I worked with, and I passed without having to attend classes. And then I continued taking classes that were job-related. So that is the extent of my education.

NEARING: Good! You said that there was segregation when you were young.

SANCHEZ: Very much so.

NEARING: Could you elaborate that a little bit, please?

SANCHEZ: Yes. I'll start off with the old grammar school. I know that some of us, the Mexican kids would sit on one side, and the Anglos would sit on the other. They also discriminated in the fact that those that were smarter sat in one area, and those that were dumber sat on another. I was one of the dumber ones, so I sat in a secluded area, more or less. And this added to my anxieties, you might say. When we were graduating from the eighth grade, I remember that the class voted as to what we wanted to do on our "ditch day." Are you familiar with the ditch day?

NEARING: You'd better tell me.

SANCHEZ: Okay, a ditch day was a special day for the graduates, where they didn't have to attend class. And they could enjoy the day, decide what they wanted to do, and the teachers would cooperate with us, they would GO with us, to whatever we voted on. So we voted that we wanted to go to Tempe Beach and have a picnic and go swimming. Well, that was fine and dandy, until the day before, when the teacher gathered all the Mexican kids and told us that we could join the picnic, but we couldn't go swimming, we weren't allowed to go swimming at the old Tempe Swimming Pool. He also told one of the girls -- Rita Bustamante -- because she was VERY, very light-complected and her hair was kind of blondish, reddish-blonde -- he told her that SHE could go swimming if she wanted to, but the rest of us, because we were dark- skinned, we couldn't. So the mother of one of the girls found out about that -- Dora Gonzales' mother, Maria Gonzales -- opened her home up to us. And so we all chipped in and we bought goodies. And so when the teacher arrived at the Beach, Mrs. Gonzales lived just a little ways from the Tempe Beach, so we all gathered over there -- except for Rita Bustamante, she went swimming. And to this day, I resent that. During the war -- Second World War -- the veterans that came back from fighting, they were the ones that made the changes for the minorities, because they got together and they fought City Hall, and things began to change then -- not completely, but they began to change. I still feel that there is some segregation to this day. It isn't as bad as it was in those days, but there's still some that exists. And you know, my father -- thank God, even though his education was very limited, he was a wise man, and what he knew, he taught his children. One of the things that he taught us was the fact that segregation DID exist, and he told us that "You have to be big enough to fight it." Not in the sense that you would go out and fist fight, but in the sense that you could walk around that, NOT let them stop you from doing what you wanted to do in life. Because there were ways to do things, to get what you want, to accomplish things that you wanted in life. And that was very true, because I pulled myself up by my bootstraps and did the best that I could, thanks to his advice and encouragement.

NEARING: Yeah, speaking of the veterans that came back after World War II, you said they made a lot of changes and so forth, and they fought City Hall. How did they go about doing this?

SANCHEZ: Okay, I was still not old enough to be involved in those things, and we didn't buy the paper. We knew . . . I knew what the neighbors talked about. There was a family by the name of Rodriguez, and one of the boys -- and I can't, at this moment, recall his name -- he was the one that got all the other veterans together and set up committees to meet with the City Council to fight this. What interaction took place, I'm not aware of. But I do know that changes were made, yeah. In talking about segregation, I think back to the days, too, this went on in the church. (phone rings)

NEARING: The Mount Carmel School and Church?

SANCHEZ: Well, in particular, the Mount Carmel Church, the one that is still located on University and College. Even in those days, even in the church, you could see segregation, because when you walked into the church, the Mexican people would sit to the right, and the Anglos would sit to the left -- all the wealthy ones. And so, even in church, there was segregation. And I didn't realize as a child that this was going on, but I did as I grew up -- I realized that this was happening. And it's sad, it was sad to think back to those days and realize that in our church, this went on. I don't think that it's existing now, that that type of thing is existing in our churches anymore, but it did back in those days.

NEARING: Now, you said that the veterans. . . . What did they do? Did they have placards, or did they. . . .

SANCHEZ: No, they didn't go on marches or anything else. They fought in an orderly fashion, as I recall. Again, you know, I was a very young person, not interested in. . . .

NEARING: You were a teenager then, weren't you?

SANCHEZ: Yeah, but keeping in mind that I lived a very sheltered life. I was not involved in community affairs or anything else like that, but I do remember the neighbors talking about they were going to the City Hall, they had a meeting. Another lady involved in this, and she was quite an assertive human being, Juana Peralta. I don't know if you've heard of the Peralta family. They were very assertive people, all of them. And Juana Peralta was VERY involved in this, and she worked with the veterans. And she was a well-known figure, respected by a lot of Anglos. (chuckles) They HAD to respect her, she was very outspoken. So I feel that they were very instrumental in bringing in some changes that affected the minorities, like I mentioned, yeah.

NEARING: You talked about a house that was on fire. Was that the Dona Marina. . . .

SANCHEZ: Dona Marina Soto, yes.

NEARING: What happened? Did she die? I don't know.

SANCHEZ: Dona Marina did not die in the fire. She was a very well-known figure in our barrio, everybody loved her. She was a little door-to-door vendor. I remember her living, as a matter of fact, in the house where we lived. As I was a small child, I remember her. She and her husband lived there with her boys and her daughters. And the husband had a horse, and there was a horse trough in front of the house that we lived in, and I remember Don Jos‚, her husband, keeping the horse tied there and watering. But getting back to this fire: here too, again, I was very touched, very frightened, because seeing it was an old house that they had put up together, there, and it was HUGE, and to see it burning, and it was at night, the whole neighborhood was lit up. And here again, my imagination ran away with me, you know, and I remember sitting in the window of our house, just watching over there, and feeling SO SAD for that family that had lost everything they had in that fire. And it was quite traumatic for me, especially knowing that the lady -- and she was such a loveable, sweet lady -- it really hurt me to know that this had happened to her. It was the first fire, the first and only fire that I have ever seen in my life, and I hope I don't see any as long as I live again.

NEARING: Did they have a fire department then?

SANCHEZ: Yes, they did, and they had -- I don't know whether it was an old Model "T" Ford fire engine or whatever, but it was. . . . And there again, too, there were no such things as hydrants in our neighborhood. There was an old canal running in front of our house, so I don't remember whether they extended hoses up to the canal -- it was quite a distance -- or whether they were there just to supervise that the fire didn't spread. I don't remember, it was too many years ago.

NEARING: Too many years ago. Understandable. Is there anything else that you can think of -- even the later date -- that would be important to us as a Museum and so forth, for the future _______.

SANCHEZ: Let me elaborate a little bit about the house that we lived in, that we grew up in.

NEARING: Go on.

SANCHEZ: It was set up . . . it was built on Knob Hill. Okay. And the street that it faced was called Canal Street. It was a part of what is now Fifth Street, but one stretch of land, like from College to what was then known as the old Eighth Street, that was known as Canal Street. And, of course, there was a canal right next to it. The house itself, we were told by an old friend of my mother's, Dona Juana Palomino -- she was a . . . I believe my mother said she was a Pima Indian, very nice lady, very dear to us -- she told my mother that that house used to be the stage coach stop. The rooms that we lived in, I remember as a little girl, had humongous doors, two doors. They were oblong, VERY, very tall. And I remember they were painted green when we moved in there. And it had . . . the floors were really worn out and it was in a terrible shape. My father rebuilt that. But getting to this room, these large rooms, that was the cantina. You know what a cantina is?

NEARING: Uh-huh.

SANCHEZ: That was supposedly the cantina. Right next to that was like a shed, attached to that house. It was a long . . . a big, long frame that was built there. It was an adobe building. And this shed, my brothers and I were talking about that not too long ago, and -- my brother Louie, who's next to me -- and we came up with the thought that THAT must have been where they put the horses to feed, you know. Right next to this large room there were two extra rooms there. And supposedly -- now, this is all hearsay -- but this lady told my mother that these were where the "ladies in waiting" were. Next to those two little rooms was another room that attached to another room that had a chimney, a fireplace, adobe fireplace. The room next to that was supposedly the eating area for the travelers. They ate there, and then the cooks were in the adjoining room. This is the tale that this lady told us, and we accepted. She went back many years, many years, just like she told us that the cemetery -- there was a cemetery around the butte. And there was an old church there too. I don't know much . . . well, I don't know anything about that, but she told us all these stories about the stage coach stop and the church and the cemetery. I feel rather proud that we lived in that house, because I feel that it's a part of our history, you know. And an interesting thing: when they were excavating to build the ladies store, that's where WE lived, where the ladies store now is located. When they were excavating, they found a lot of Indian relics: metates and broken pieces of pottery and things like that. They stopped the excavation to give the anthropologists a chance to go in there and do some digging. As a matter of fact, I had an article -- it's been returned to me now, but I gave it to Scott, so that he _______________.

NEARING: Yeah. We have copies.

SANCHEZ: I really feel proud that part of my life was shared in that place, because there was so much history there. And you know, people back in those days, and to this day too, they felt that there was a treasure buried there -- keeping in mind that our house was up higher than the people that lived below. So that's where our barrio got the title of El Altito. It meant it was "high," you know. So they felt that there was a treasure buried there, and they felt that it was in the room where the kitchen was located, with the chimney, the fireplace. And they used to say that they saw espantos, which, espanto means "ghost." Ghosts would come out of the chimney, you know. So they were sure that there was something buried there, and they claimed that they could see the ghosts floating around on the outside, you know, at night, on a dark night. And they would tell us about this. Well my father saw that that room was very dangerous, because the fireplace was cracking, and we used to play around there, so he decided that he was gonna knock that down. Well, that was the entertainment for the barrio. They all sat out in front of their houses to watch my father knock the chimney down, because they were SURE he was going to bring out a lot of money from the chimney. My father was so ornery. I recall this vividly, because as he was knocking the chimney down, he would yell at them, "Aqui es el tesoro!" "Here's the treasure!" And he kept knocking the adobes -- believe me, he didn't find ANYTHING. Well, one night while he was working for the City of Tempe, he was an irrigator, he was out irrigating, and as he was going to turn on the water, he saw something flashing in the water. He scooped it up -- this was in the middle of the night -- but the moon was shining so beautifully. And he put it in his pocket. The next day when he looked at what he had found, it turned out it was a gold coin. So my father took it with him to work, and he worked with this man who was the biggest gossip -- and he did it on purpose, so here again my father was very ornery. (NEARING laughs) So he showed it to this man, and he said, "Look what I've got." And the man saw this gold coin, and right away the assumption was made that my father had really found the treasure. To this day, to this day, people think that we're wealthy, because my father found that treasure, and that's why we're so well off. We've all got beautiful homes and all this. This is what THEY think. We know better!

NEARING: (laughs) Absolutely!

SANCHEZ: So this is how I was raised in this type of surroundings. Here again, we have our reunions, our barrio reunions. I don't know if you've heard of them.

NEARING: I have.

SANCHEZ: You have? So there's still a lot of unity amongst the Mexican people, and people come from all over for those reunions, and we reminisce and have a good time. So you see. . . .

NEARING: How often do they occur?

SANCHEZ: Well, they were every three years, but I understand that they're now going to be every two years, because there's so much of a demand. In spite of the segregation and everything else that went on, I still think that there was a lot of good in my childhood. I feel very, very fortunate that I lived the years that I did.

NEARING: Wonderful.

SANCHEZ: Yeah. And I'm really proud to be a part of Tempe, because I see that it has become from a one-horse town, it has become a beautiful, thriving metropolis. I'm very fortunate to live in this time.

NEARING: Right, I agree. Do you know anything about the Peterson house, other than what you mentioned earlier?

SANCHEZ: No.

NEARING: Do you remember the Peterson house?

SANCHEZ: It's a house that I remember. I didn't know it as a child, because remember, we didn't have transportation in those years, during the time that the Petersons lived. I do remember as I was growing up . . . as an adult driving by there and seeing that house. And to me it was such an exciting home. And I always had a deep desire to see what it was like inside, but I never was assertive enough. . . . Well, I couldn't approach someone and say, "Hey, can I see your house?" I just admired it. So when I became a volunteer for the Tempe Museum and they mentioned that they needed volunteers, I became very excited. And I loved the time that I was able to work as a volunteer there, because it is a beautiful house, and there's a lot of history behind it.

NEARING: Oh yes. Well, thank you very much for this information. I know we're gonna really enjoy this and put a lot of this down, you know, for part of our history.

END SIDE TWO

END OF INTERVIEW