Tempe Historical Museum Oral Histories

LENDLE: My name is Janet Lendle. And our narrator today is Mr. Buddy Baird. A, this interview is part of the Tempe Oral History Project. And the date is August sixth, nineteen eighty-seven. And we’re located at the home of Mr. Baird, a, which is at five twenty-eight West Seventeenth Place in Tempe. Okay. A, Mr. Baird, a, how did it come about that your family came from Kansas to Tempe?

BAIRD: Well, in nineteen thirteen my mother’s sister, who had graduated from the University of Kansas, was teaching school in Arkansas City. A, and a, she read in a newspaper or somewhere that ______________ were seeking English teachers to Tempe Normal School. So she applied and was given the job. And she moved out with her mother. And a, they rented a house on the corner of Sixth Street and Myrtle, right across from the Congregational Church. And a, they enjoyed it so much that a, they convinced my mother and her husband, my dad, that this was the place of opportunity. So a, they moved out. They, we lived first on a ranch out south of Tempe that used to be called the Kasner Ranch. And it consisted of forty acres of peaches, apricots, and almonds.

LENDLE: Where was that located, actually?

BAIRD: It’s the corner of Kyrene Road and Elliot Drive. Elliot. The first year my dad was here he farmed a section of land for the Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company raising long staple cotton. And it, it a, they grew what they called Goodyear Ranches at that time. That was south of Chandler. What you, a, what is now called Ocotillo. And shortly after that Goodyear moved their plant, their farming, over to west Phoenix. And a, my dad then started trying to find the … and that’s when he started these service stations. No later. And a, I guess it was, that’s when he started these service stations.

LENDLE: And the service station was located in Tempe?

BAIRD: Tempe.

LENDLE: ________________________

BAIRD: Tempe, at the corner of what is now University. Then we called it Eighth Street and Mill Avenue. At that time the highway came across the old Tempe bridge on to Second Street and turned onto Mill west, south on Mill to Peach Tree or University and made a left turn going east, and a, they didn't have a bridge across the canal at that time. Where they, where they veer off onto Krueger Street and cross that, what we called Creamery Drive—1 don't know what it's called now—and a, went down to McClintock, turned south to [what] we used to call Lone Palm Corner which is the corner of McClintock and University, Apache, and then went turned left and went right into Mesa.

LENDLE: And were there a ... did that help a, the gas station?

BAIRD: Oh yes. A, the county had paved certain streets in the area, in the Valley, but they were two, twenty feet wide, there were two, ten foot lanes. And a, that's why the service station on the corner there a, across the, from the service station was what we called the Mexican School. And it was a two-story red brick building, and a, where all the Mexicans were required to go into Tempe, except those that went to the training school.

LENDLE: And a, where was that located again, the . . . ?

BAIRD: ...Mexican school...

LENDLE: ...Mexican school?

BAIRD: ...was ____ on the southeast corner of Mill Avenue and, what is now University. A, the grade, the, public school, at that time was located at the end of Myrtle and Tenth Street. And that consisted of one long a, strip. Now I can’t, I don’t, a, can never a, prove it when my dad said one of the reasons that we went to the training school was that he didn’t like segregation.

LENDLE: I see.

BAIRD: Oh a, I talked to my sister last week and she says she don’t know whether Dad used that as a campaign issue when he was running for the school board. But he was elected and shortly afterward the Mexican school was closed down.

LENDLE: So you’re not sure whether that was connected…

BAIRD: I don’t have know…

LENDLE: …or not.

BAIRD: …whether that was connected or not, but a, my dad was a rock ribbed Republican from Kansas. Of course a, had the slavers and the anti-slavers, is the only thing I can call the, a, during the Civil War. But was my dad was, as I say, he was born in Pennsylvania, moved to Illinois and finally out to Kansas where they, his a, father had a ranch in Dodge City.

LENDLE: And then finally came here to Tempe?

BAIRD: Right.

LENDLE: Finally came…

BAIRD: Did he have…

[incomprehensible overlapping speech]

LENDLE: Does he have any, or do you remember any early memories of what Tempe was like when he first came here? Did he tell…

BAIRD: …because I was a babe in arm when I came here, but my first remembrance about Tempe was Dad’s service station. Across it, too, was the Stillham Blacksmith Shop. The other block on the western side was a doctor’s office for Doctor R. J. Stroud, who was an old time Tempean. And a, across from Doctor Stroud was the dentist Doctor DeVore. Now Stroud didn't live in his office, but Doctor DeVore built a house which consisting of his house and the front end was the dental office.

LENDLE: Was that pretty common to combine...

BAIRD: A, yes, a...

LENDLE: ...the home with an office.

BAIRD: Yes. Now across the street from the north side of a, Seventh Street was what they called, used to call, the Olive Hotel. It had no lobby but a, he had this s--, a, a small office there at the front. And a, it was two story. I can't remember how many. I'm sorry it, yes, it's across from a Doctor Vaughn. Doctor DeVore's office was on Seventh Street and a, Mill, and across the street then was the Olive Hotel. Now down at the other end of the block there was an old lumberyard on the west side of Mill Avenue and Sixth Street. And on the northwest corner was the Tempo National Bank. Across from them was the Baber-Jones Mercantile Store.

LENDLE: A, and you worked at the store. . .

BAIRD: I worked at...

LENDLE: ...for a while?

BAIRD: ...that store starting is the eighth grade and then through high school. A, nothing then ____ Baber and Jones. And the next corner was Laird and Dines Drugstore which was the city hangout. 'Course they had a fountain and you went into to get a Coke or a lemon phosphate or dish of ice cream, or ice cream cone. On the northeast corner of Mill Avenue was another bank, The Farmers and Merchants Bank, which went bankrupt, and a, the cashier and was convicted of embezzlement. Served time, but a, it stayed empty for quite a while. Then it became a Pickwick Stage Depot. Forerunner of Greyhound. That was a cafe, next to the bank and next to it was the Vienna Bakery which was a, a full-service bakery. You can call, they had counter sales and also they served these grocery stores in the area. There was a row of buildings across from that. A, and on the northwest corner of Fourth Street was the Casa Loma Hotel which is now part of the redevelopment program, was a three story hotel. No elevator. And a....

LENDLE: So there were actually two hotels in the Tempe...

BAIRD: Two hotels...

LENDLE: ...area?

BAIRD: You might say that the a, Casa Loma was the a, one for the a, higher priced rooms. The other hotel was almost a dormitory type place.

LENDLE: What kind of people would stay there? Were they . . . ?

BAIRD: At the Casa, Olives?

LENDLE: Either one.

BAIRD: Well, _________ the, I'd say general, the uh, traveling salesmen were looking for cheap place. They'd stayed, generally would stay at the Olive, but they'd save a dollar or two. But the a, Casa Loma had some, a some of them stop there too. And a, then ....

LENDLE: Hum.

BAIRD: _____ out to the railroad tracks and across the tracks was on the north side of the tracks. On northwest corner was a Baber Feed and Grain. It was connected with the Baber-Jones, but they handled feed and grain and, and a, what a, a pharmaceutical preparations were for the doctor, for the veterinarians. Further...

LENDLE: Ah huh.

BAIRD: ...down on the a, southwest corner of Mill and Second Street there was a service station. It wasn't as a, big as a, a, and then across down a, down the block then was the old Hayden residence. Ca—, is now the Casa a, which is now the Casa L-, a, Casa Viejo they used to call it. Now it's the a, Monti's Steak House. Across from that was the Hayden Flour Mills and this was before they put up the high a, elevator storage.

LENDLE: When was that, what year?

BAIRD: Oh, I'm talking ______ early twenties. They a, elevator didn't go up until much later. But as a, I say the, across the river on the old Tempe bridge--, built by convict labor, incidentally,--, and they had barracks for these convicts where the Tempe Beach ball field is now.

LENDLE: And whereabouts is that?

BAIRD: That's on First Street and the a, I guess it would be Ash?

LENDLE: Hum.

BAIRD: But to cross the river went on a block to, to Second Street and turned left to Mill and turned right at Mill and go down the other end of town.

LENDLE: Where did the convicts come from?

BAIRD: Florence.

LENDLE: Florence.

BAIRD: They were they were a, I guess you'd you call it medium secu—, low security or medium security prisoners. When they built the Tempe, the old Tempe bridge, a the a, quarried some of the stone from the west end of the____ Butte at Tempe there. You can see the big place where they gouged it out. And the bridge served its purpose until they had a flood. They felt they were on bedrock 'cause you’ll notice the bridge goes along for a while and takes a dip. So the big, when the one of these floods, a, and of course we didn't have any dams except Roosevelt and so when it had high water it went bank to bank and a, considerable force and apparently some one of the big _______ 'cause the bridge dropped.

LENDLE: Did they bring. . . . how did they repair it?

BAIRD: They a, put a caisson around the pillar and then went down in the poured cement a, where they'd get to where they couldn't raise it up, but it a, made it stable. And because of this situation, and a, that's why the highway department decided to put the new, the new bridge there on the, east of the a, the old bridge. And that definitely went down to bedrock. All the way. They used to caissons to go down. Now the rumor was running all Uiis, because of the when the old br—, and old bridge's on a, dams on the a Tonto Creek or on the Verde, why then there was always water running, a, and a, whenever they'd put cable, went dead down to bedrock, and you go. See it's very substantial I mean the, I don't know how many tons of concrete they used, but it wasn't...

LENDLE: Lots.

BAIRD: A whole lot.

LENDLE: Ah huh.

BAIRD: And a, the bridge did go straight across at, kind of at an, an S shape, so that a, that's where they found the bedrock.

LENDLE: I see. You mentioned a, working part of the time in this the a, Mercantile...

BAIRD: Yeah.

LENDLE: ...store? What was the store like in those days?

BAIRD: It was no self-service. You walked up and somebody, there were several counters around, and a, the girl a, d--, shopper would say, "I want. . . " and he'd, she'd ha—, generally she'd hand a list to one of the clerks. There was a multi-tiered cash register. I say that because everybody who worked had a drawer. There must have been ten to twelve, at least, drawers in this big cash register.

LENDLE: How big was it? Just a...

BAIRD: Oh, I'd a stood on the ground and the re--, cash register where you rang the items up sat on top a, the a, cash register was a little higher than the counters. That's ho—, the cash register self. What a...

LENDLE: So the cash register was actually something that came from the ground...

BAIRD: Well...

LENDLE: ...all the way up to the, this desk?

BAIRD: I don't know whether, it had to be connected because when you rang a, the sale up finally, your drawer would pop open. And depending what button you pushed, if you pushed the wrong button you'd get somebody else's drawer. And that was frowned on.

LENDLE: That could cause problems. Uh?

BAIRD: Cause problems. And a, in the morning Mr. Baber would add up the cash and he'd go put it in your drawer and if you were short at the end of the day, it came out of your salary. I was working for fifteen cents an hour. So I didn't dare make any mistakes.

LENDLE: No.

BAIRD: But a, then a, like I say I graduated from high school. I'd been working there part time. And a, _____ attended University, ______ Tempe Normal a, Tempe Teacher's College, I think it was for two years. Then the bottom dropped out. My dad a, was running a cotton mill, cotton gin. It folded.

LENDLE: Was that here in...

BAIRD: It was in the Tempe area.

LENDLE: Tempe. A, ah huh.

BAIRD: My mother was playing at, the organ at the Menhenet Theatre over on ... talkies came in. She lost her job. So I was the only one who was working.

LENDLE: And you were working at the mercantile store?

BAIRD: The mercantile store. And a, so I arranged with Mr. Baber that if he would raise my salary to twenty-five cents an hour, my mom and dad would take it out in trade. 'Course he was glad to see that because, I mean he was giving me twenty cents worth of groceries and getting credit for twenty-five.

LENDLE: Was that a common practice that people would do that?

BAIRD: I was the only one in—, I know of in the store that did that. Like I said a, I was working for fifteen cents an hour. The others were salary employees, but fifteen dollars a week or twenty dollars a week would be .... I know the butcher got twenty-five dollars a week and he was the highest paid man.

LENDLE: And that, that was in about, in the, the nineteen twenties?

BAIRD: Nope. This was in thirties here. This was during the Depression years.

LENDLE: That's right.

BAIRD: Now a...

LENDLE: How did the Depression affect the store and what was sold?

BAIRD: It made lot more credit sales. Now Baber did have a delivery. You could call up on the phone and say, "Now here's my grocery list. Would you deliver them, please?" And they'd come. You'd sign the ticket and it would go on the charge and in a month you'd get your bill.

LENDLE: Did he have trouble collecting in those days?

BAIRD: No, he didn't. 'Cause he wasn't soft like my dad was. If you didn't pay your bill your credit was cut.

LENDLE: I see.

BAIRD: That's the only way to run a business. I mean I, people thought he was very hard, but a, he couldn't afford to feed the whole town.

LENDLE: What other kinds of things were in the store? You started telling me about what was sold.

BAIRD: Well, in the back. . . . the front end was all groceries and meat. But in the warehouse, or the back end he had feed and grain, he'd had, feed and grain store down, I mentioned across the railroad track, but a, easy for someone to call up and say, "Well a, I need some chicken feed." Just most of us a, raised chickens for the eggs and the poul—, and a, the meat. I remember our first, when we moved into town, our first residence was on Seventh Street a, two blocks or a, two houses west of Forest Avenue. It's now part of this little shopping area. Then we moved over a, next to mother's sister into the second house. The first house was Mrs. Druxer and her mother. The second house we rented, they were both identical houses, owned by a Doctor Moeur, B. B. Moeur, whose offices were at the west end of the Tempe National Bank.

LENDLE: And you mentioned that most everybody raised chickens, in those days, for the eggs.

BAIRD: Right. It was a, you, it cost less to raise eggs and to pay on every ten cents a dozen.

LENDLE: So they would sell like the eggs in the store?

BAIRD: Sometimes we did, now the...

LENDLE: ...in the mercantile store?

BAIRD: ...store but a, and a, you didn't get much for them but every little bit helped.

LENDLE: Hum. Did people raise anything else at home, in the city?

BAIRD: My dad always had a garden, but a lot, most of the people didn't. My dad was a very high powered horticulturalist. Like I say. If you said he couldn't grow it, he would grow it to prove you were wrong.

LENDLE; Hum.

BAIRD: He was told he couldn't grow asparagus. So he raised asparagus. Told you couldn't have apple trees. So he raised apples. Three or four different kind of apples.

LENDLE: I see. And he, mentioned some other kind of tree. What other kind of tree did he bring into the area?

BAIRD: The a, ornamental pistachio and a, at his home on the corner of Maple and Thirteenth Street, a, these huge trees are still g--, a, still a, still there and a, they're beautiful shade trees. They are a little messy when they shed the a, little berries that they had in the place of the .... But a, that was the envy of everybody in town because, see, the shade cut down on the refrigeration, or the cooling bill. We had swamp coolers in those days.

LENDLE: Oh.

BAIRD: That was and they moved there in thirty-nine [1939]. I believe.

LENDLE: Were the swamp coolers then the same as the swamp coolers that we have today?

BAIRD: 'Cept most of them were home . . . the thing I--, at the a, Maple and Thirteenth Street we had water cooler, but Dad had built us a, a house on the Eighth Street a, just west of Maple and a, there we just built a box with chicken wire at the a, outside end and water dripping into it from the hose. And you put one of these sixteen ounce, sixteen inch fans in it and it didn't do a real good job. But it did help.

LENDLE: Okay. So that was a homemade type of cooler.

BAIRD: Homemade type...

LENDLE: ...type of cooler.

BAIRD: ...of cooler. Right, uh huh.

LENDLE: ...used. Okay. Then did other people do that sort of thing?

BAIRD: Everybody that could did.

LENDLE: Okay.

BAIRD: Power was really inexpensive at that time.

LENDLE: Where did the power come from in the thirties?

BAIRD: __________ I think it was Southwest Gas and Electric. And they maintained, they bought their electricity from the Salt River Power District, oh, and it was called Salt River Water User's, Salt River Water User's Association at that time. And a, then the City of Tempo bought the old Southwest Gas and Electric thinking that it would provide revenue. But it was a money loser every year, so finally they held an election and voted to sell the, that firm, that city-owned firm to the a, Central Arizona Light and Power, which is now SRP, I mean a, APS.

LENDLE: Was it very expensive to pay for power in those days?

BAIRD: No.

LENDLE: 'Bout how much would you have to pay?

BAIRD: I think a, if a got a bill about twelve, fifteen dollars my Dad wanted to find out why.

LENDLE: Okay. And that was pretty average for families?

BAIRD: I would think so. Now at our house that we built on Peach Street, we had an electric water heater and one of the first electric ranges in Tempe. And that's when our bill ran a little higher than .... On our electric water heater. It had an off and on switch there. You didn't run it all day long and have the temperature drop in. The thing cut on.

LENDLE: So that was to save it?

BAIRD: But when it came time to wash the dishes, you turned on the hot water. Waited a few minutes...

LENDLE: ...to see...

BAIRD: And a, you wanted to take a bath. Turned the hot water on and ....

LENDLE: I think they're starting to do that sort of thing again today.

BAIRD: I think so. One thing...

LENDLE: A good idea.

BAIRD: ...so. We're told by a, a, the a, people who are interested in energy...

LENDLE: ...uh huh...

BAIRD: ...that you can save money if you turn your gas water heater off.

LENDLE: Sure.

BAIRD: But, but gas has been very inexpensive far...

END SIDE ONE

BEGIN SIDE TWO

LENDLE: Mr. Baird, I understand your mother played the organ for the one of the theatres in town. Could you tell us about that?

BAIRD: Film theatre. There was only one. It was called Menhenant Theatre because Mr. Menhenant had theatres in Tempe and Mesa and Gilbert. But a, when the film was, was shipped, included in the shipment was a musical cue sheet. Where'd fur—, when you were having a western and there was a chase it, it gave you a few bars of what a, where it was a real soft love scene why they gave you a cue sheet what kind of music to play. And you didn't have to play that kind of music, but it gave you the tempo, you wanted though. Fast and or slow and soft. That sort of .... But a, the theatre was a, was a pipe organ and a, my mother a, was quite an accomplished musician. In fact, all the Bairds were accomplished musicians. Mother played the piano or the organ. My older, my oldest, my one sister a, was a, is a, is an accomplished concert harpist.

LENDLE: Ah. So that she came, she had she naturally...

BAIRD: ...came by that.

LENDLE: ...to that thing.

BAIRD: My a, a, my mother played the organ at the Congregational Church a, on Sundays.

LENDLE: Is that in Tempe?

BAIRD: Congregational Church a, a, is still where it used to be, only the building is different.

LENDLE: Oh.

BAIRD: And a, when her mother's a, had to give it up, a, mother took over the organ, for a while. But it was an old Estee Reed Organ with the bellows and they had an electric motor that pumped this bellows up and down.

LENDLE: And this was the one in the theatre?

BAIRD: No. This was the one in church. The a, organ in the theatre was a pipe organ. And a...

LENDLE: How large are pipe organs?

BAIRD: Oh. This one had a, two s—, two a, no, three keyboards. And then the pipes were over on the a, on both sides of the wall. They can be as big or as small a, there's a limit how low you can go. Because the bigger the tubes the lower the sound. The smaller the tubes the higher the sound. Now as an example the a, organ in the a, Gammage a, Hall Gammage Theatre Gammage a, who—, are set up for the performing arts, it has six or seven keyboards and a, but this, a, like I say, do—, urn, when the talkies came on well, then mother lost her job and he, Menhenant, sold the organ to a, a church. I don't remember which church it was.

LENDLE: You mentioned to that a, the, there was no charge for children coming to the movies?

BAIRD: For the organist's kids.

LENDLE: Oh, so you got in free then?

BAIRD: We got in free. But Mother and Dad wouldn't let us go to show except on Fridays and Saturdays. We couldn't go Sunday 'cause school the next day. And during the school days you didn't go to the theatre.

LENDLE: But the, did have movies during the week?

BAIRD: Oh. Yes. Monday was the dark day. No, no movies on Monday. But they would a, be a show Tuesday and Wednesday. Another show Thursday and Friday and Saturday. No. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. There were two shows a week coming in.

LENDLE: Why do you think there weren't shows on Monday? Was there any special reason?

BAIRD: Well, I think that the a, people that ran the theatre ran el--, ran the a, projection material wanted a day off.

LENDLE: That's right.

BAIRD: The a, old Menhenant Theatre went closed finally. And we had a couple of people come in, couple of students from ASU come in or Roy [Red?] Harkins was one. And a, a, Dan Shurmacker[?] was the other, and they refurbished it and opened it as the College Theatre.

LENDLE: What did it look like before? If you could think back on a, when you were younger, going into the theatre what did it actually...

BAIRD: Well...

LENDLE: ...look like?

BAIRD: The a, on either side of the hall were what they called, what we'd call loge seats. They were raised up, more comfortable seats. Then the rest of the theatre seating was down in the center. The a, screen was not tremendous. It was normal for that size. Made out of canvas pulled tight. What they would do, they'd—I watched them build one of them. They had to kind of, they'd spray it with water which shrank it tight and then they'd spray it with, or paint it with aluminum paint. The upstairs, you had to go up the stairs to get to the projection room, there were, I think, two apartments up there. That's where a, Roy, Roy Harkins and Shurmacker, Shurmacker lived while they . . . Stan finally dropped out, but Roy Harkins a, is a forerunner of the Harkins Theatres, He's, was quite a well-known a, a, Harkins Theatres, in the Valley a, started with the old College Theatre.

LENDLE: So he was in—, he actually lived above the theatre.

BAIRD: Lived above the theatre. I don't know when it happened, but they finally built the, what is now the College Theatre there on Mill Avenue. And a, that was the first of his chain of top flight. He had a lot of troubles because a, he was a small operator and the a, producers of the films used what they called block shipping or block sales. If you bought one comedy, you had to buy two westerns, and if you bought a, that's the way they—, a, and Harkins couldn't afford to do that so he had to get his a, films to start off with a, from different sources.

LENDLE: Where would those sources be?

BAIRD: In Hollywood somewhere, but they wouldn't be the big producers, so we got a lot of second rate movies, but it was still a movie.

LENDLE; Was it a popular place on a Saturday night?

BAIRD: Yes. The Menhenant Theatre was generally, pretty well filled. And then when they built the College Theatre a, it was easier to get to Phoenix in those days, after when the College Theatre was built, so a, the attendance wasn't as good there. But to get a good movie you'd fill it up. It was like even in those days, popcorn was one of the big money raisers.

LENDLE; So there was food available.

BAIRD: Popcorn. But the Menhenant Theatre it was not. But a, when the College Theatre built then, in the lobby was the candy bar and the popcorn machine and a, soda pop. Of course, you didn't have the kind of soda pop you get at a drug store. He bought the bottles. We had a bottling plant in Tempe that was down on a, well it's a block north of University and would've have been where College Avenue would have gone. Normal Avenue, I'm sorry, [narrator tries to remember street name] would've gone through. Now Normal Avenue was the east, was on the east side of the campus, college at that time. And a, people lived on it. The only buildings that the Teacher's College at that time, were the Old Main on the northeast was the science and administration building. The library for the, was in the second floor east of Old Main. There was an auditorium to the west of Old Main, but it had to be torn down eventually, 'cause it got to be dangerous. And then a, the what is now the anthropology building was the industrial arts building. They had carpentry, a forge, wood-woodworking, and on the north side of the building was the typing labs. That sort of thing.

LENDLE: Wh—, when was this again? Was this still in the thirties?

BAIRD: This was in the early thirties, yes, uh huh.

LENDLE: Okay.

BAIRD: A, the heating plant at that time, was located where the Lyceum theatre is now. Consisted of two oil fired—, two oil fired boilers, and it pumped hot water to the registers of these buildings. Now the Training School was located south of Old Main and it was a large auditorium building with classes around the side.

LENDLE: Okay. And what was the purpose of the Training School?

BAIRD: Well, at Normal School you'd, you went there two years to get your teaching credential. And one semester of your sophomore year was spent teaching at a, Training School. 'Cause a, at that time they didn't farm out the teachers to a, and a, you taught under a supervisory teacher. Each grade had its own teacher, or one teacher, maybe two grades. And a, so the term was used generally for what, I can remember, only thing I can remember is the standard achievement tests were given in the auditorium. They didn't have any permanent seating and a, occasionally we'd have a, somebody come in and put on a show for us, but not very, now. We—, east of Training School was Alpha Hall which was then a dormitory for men. That's where the life sciences building are now. And across from that was the, president's residence which is now the archives building.

LENDLE: I want to go back to the Training School, because I'm wondering how, you mentioned before that a, I, I'm wondering how you came to go to the Training School as opposed to the public schools?

BAIRD: Well, there were two reasons. My aunt taught there. Taught [at] the teacher's college. And a, then all the time it'd been under the belief that my dad didn't believe in segregation. I talked to my sister, last week, and she said she wasn't aware of that and that she doesn't think it was the campaign Dad elected to the school board, but shortly after Dad was elected to the school board, the Mexican school was closed down.

LENDLE: So then, these Mexican school children went to the public schools?

BAIRD: They went to public schools. They could go to the Normal School, if they wanted. And we had quite a few of the better class. I say "better class", not demeaning the Mexicans in any way, but a, just like in the society today we have a middle class and upper class, but the a, a, ....Well, 111 tell you. The a, Mexican Town consisted of the area north of north of Eighth Street and University and east of what is now College Avenue. It was, I can't remember what it was named prior to that. But a, one of the a, Palo Verde Dormitories a, was, was, Mexican a, the a, then across the railroad tracks was a, what we used to call Shanty Town. It was poor people. Even poorer. Mostly farm laborers. But a, some general laborers.

LENDLE: Was, were there any organizations in that area, political organizations or otherwise?

BAIRD: No. The nearest thing to a political organization, in that area, was a, a, cafe and eating place called Dad Mann's. And a, Dad took Friday to try to get the Mexicans. I see. Mexicans couldn't go to the Tempe Beach Swimming Pool, and a...

LENDLE: How did people explain that, that they wouldn't weren't allowed to go there?

BAIRD: I don't how what, how to explain it. I do know that Negroes were not barred from the City of Tempe. But I know of only one couple that tried to move into Tempe. They moved into the small house at the corner of Third Street, no, Fourth Street and Ash. And they had trouble with their a, utilities. Trouble with their a, let's just call it vandalism. Or rowdyism. Hooliganism. And eventually they gave up and left, but there was no written rule that you couldn't live in Tempe, but they just made it so uncomfortable.

LENDLE: And you think your father was influential in changing some...

BAIRD: A, I, I used to think so. But Mary Ellen says she doesn't thinks so. So I ____ my sister. So I, I don't know, but I'd say it was interesting that certainly after he was elected to the Tempe School Board, Mexican Schools closed down.

LENDLE: He was involved in, in many things...

BAIRD: Yes.

LENDLE: ...your father was.

BAIRD: He was appointed a, Postmaster [of] Tempe in nineteen thirty-one by President Hoover. He took the place of Raymond Steel who died on the job, had a, died. And a, Dad had his four years in the post office. Then Roosevelt appointed his successor who was Floyd Miller.

LENDLE: What did that post consist of? What were your, your father's responsibilities?

BAIRD: Well. He was responsible for the a, accounting end of it. He had to balance his books, generally each day. He was responsible for making ....We had, at that time, we had one town carrier. Charles Dougherty was the town carrier. Dad was responsible for seeing that he did, that he delivered his mail properly, and so forth and so on. We had two rural routes. One east of Tempe and one south of Tempe. And a, Dad a, then he was, he waited on customers, of course. He a, it was his policy the place was clean and presentable. Maintained the bulletin board. But his big job was to make sure that _______ the accounting end of it. He handled personnel matters, too. But a, Mr. and Mrs. Dougherty had been there quite a while. And Marie Blount was also one of the clerks in the post office, but she left to transfer back East because she had a boyfriend or something back there.

LENDLE: How was the mail shipped in?

BAIRD: By train. Dad had to go down to the a, occasionally it'd be delivered by truck from Phoenix, but generally it was a, shipped in by train.

LENDLE: Did it take very much time to get a letter from urn, say the East Coast to Tempe?

BAIRD: Well, of course it was all shipped by train. So if you got four day service, you were doing pretty good.

LENDLE: Hum, well, once it got here then the next day the carrier would take it...

BAIRD: ...take it out. He'd come in, in the morning, and what they called "distribute the mail". He had a, a, a keyhole box with all this, and a, he would do—, he would distribute by area. And then when he made up his delivery sack, then he would change it into .... So. One ten was in back of one, in front of one twelve. In front of one fifteen and so forth.

LENDLE: Okay. I imagine there was a bulletin board in the post office, too.

BAIRD: Yes.

LENDLE: What was on the bulletin board?

BAIRD: Wanted Posters. Public Notices. Auction Notices. ________ in the early days a, when he was there, the IRS used to publish a list of all those who had to file a return. And in those days five thousand dollars was the minimum. If you didn't, earned less, you didn't have to file a return. So they interested a lot of people. They'd come down and thumb through that list see what tha—, so-and-so'd whether they filed a return.

LENDLE: So it sounds like an active place.

BAIRD: Yes. It was a active place. Like I say, the post office was located in the corner of Fourth and Mill and a, to the north of the post office, in the same building, was Price Witcos Furniture Store. Upstairs was the Masonic Lodge. Dad also served as Secretary of the lodge and a, during the Depression years I know that he paid a lot of, not the local dues, but the national dues, so people wouldn't lose their membership. Maybe it was two dollars. I don't know. But a, he was given credit with keeping the lodge alive here in Tempe. He served as secretary of the lodge for ten, fifteen years.

LENDLE: Hum. Then you mentioned he was also a, involved with the water, water...

BAIRD: Well...

LENDLE: commissioner or...

BAIRD: No. He was...

LENDLE: _____?

BAIRD: _______ in nineteen thirty-eight he was appointed City Clerk. And the City Clerk in those days, those days a, was more or less a city manager. Had a, a gentleman who was foreman of labor, superintendent of streets, which is _______. Is now is involved in t—, his job would now be the city manager. What a, my Dad a, was known as "The Peacemaker" because he could calm people down. They'd come in roaring because the water'd been shut off or whatever it was and a, when he died, he'd died, unfortunately on the job. He had a heart attack. In the fall of nineteen forty-five, and so at the time his doctor said, "Now you must rest half a day. You work in the morning, you rest in the afternoon. Rest in the afternoon. Or work in the afternoon, you're going to have to rest in the morning." And a, so he was in one of his rest periods and a, phone call came to the city that a, the, a labor foreman a, couldn't attend the Municipal League Meeting in Phoenix and said, "Can you make it?" and Dad said, "Sure. Ill go." So a, they said, "Well, well send a, one of the city policemen down to take you, the city policeman down to take you over." So Dad went to the meeting. On his way back he turned to the City Marshal, who was driving, and he said, "I'm gonna cause you trouble, Seth," and he was dead.

LENDLE: So that was very fast then. hum?

BAIRD: What, the a, [Tempe] Daily News, had an editorial about Dad, and they said, "It's fitting that he died on the job." But that's one of my sad points, the city has never remembered Dad. When a fireman was killed on the job, a park was named after him. The other big city people had schools named after them. But Dad has nothing. He had a rose garden around the City Hall. That was dug up when they built the new hall.

LENDLE: Sounds like they did, they did give him a title, in terms of "The Peacemaker" though. So they've recognized..

BAIRD: Yes, what one...

LENDLE: ...in that sense...

BAIRD: ...a, the a, he got along beautifully with people.

END SIDE TWO

BEGIN SIDE THREE

LENDLE: Okay. Mr. Baird. You were talking before about your father working as the City Clerk and it sounded like, as a City Clerk he had a lot of different jobs, a lot of different...

BAIRD: That's right.

LENDLE: ...things to do. Could you describe some of those things?

BAIRD: Well. He's was a, city accountant. He kept the books. He was the billing person, so he paid out the water bills. I know it was an old fashioned billing machine, but it a, it put in the prior reading, the current reading, difference in a hundred, hundredths of gallons. And then a, the a, how much you'd a, you owed. And those were mailed, they weren't delivered. They were mailed by the post office. Then people would come in to pay their bills to Dad. Dad was the full time person. And he would have somebody in to help, especially during the billing time. Because it's kind of hard to gear you up and down. The billing. But a, he, he as more, they, they called him "The Peacemaker" because people would come in with eyes of fire, and ready to chew somebody and before they left, they were, generally satisfied. Can't win them all, but a, he won more than his share.

LENDLE: Okay. And you mentioned that maybe there was a, a, that people could a, complain about the amount that was charged?

BAIRD: Yes. If he thought you were, thought your bill, your meter had been misread, you could come in and ask to have it re-read, and if it was correct a, the meter was correct, then you had to pay an extra dollar. But if it, if the meter was wrong, then your bill was adjusted.

LENDLE: Did many people do that, do you think?

BAIRD: No, no, Dad had a, a, a gentleman that'd been reading meters for a long while. And a, he's smart enough to know when a meter's been jammed. People who didn't want to pay their water would break the glass on the meter with a stick, or, if you ever got caught, of course, you would, had to pay a fine, but a, you would know that then they'd average the bill for the last four months. They didn't have a, or if your meter had stopped for any other reason, they'd average your bill for four months. That what you paid.

LENDLE: Hum. Were there any other tasks, or jobs, that he had as a clerk there?

BAIRD: Occasionally, he would act as city magistrate if they didn't have, the magistrate wasn't on duty.

LENDLE; And what would that entail?

BAIRD: Oh, a, hearings where people were arrested for speeding which was very of—, very few because a, they didn't have a city police car. Some cases. of assault or fighting, let's put it that way. But a, they didn't have much, new use for a magistrate in the early years. 'Til the city grew up and they, then they had to have .... 'Course when they started putting people in cars to chase speeders, why a, ....

LENDLE: So there was really one policeman.

BAIRD: We had a marshal during the daytime. Night watch, and a night, watchman at night, called the City Marshal and the main duty of the night watchman, was to check and make sure all the businesses on Mill Avenue were a, locked. Occasionally he'd find one open and he'd go back and call the person on the phone.

LENDLE: When did they first get cars for the policemen?

BAIRD: I don't remember. I think it was in the middle thirties. They didn't have a chief of police because they only had one man. And a, the night watchman worked seven days a week. Both of 'them worked seven days a week. We had one policeman killed in the line of duty. A night watchman. The First National Bank on r—, that I mentioned, on the corner of, or the Tempo National Bank, was robbed. And the a, night marshal came around. Caught 'them in the act. And a, fired several shots. Didn't hit anybody, but they, they hit him and killed him. His name was Woods, Night Watchman Woods. And that left a lot of people very unhappy.

LENDLE: What, how did they react to that?

BAIRD: Well. A little bit of rage because of the fact somebody would get killed was bad enough. And the fact that they were trying to rob our bank. Because that was the only bank in town. Had people upset.

LENDLE: Did they catch the people who robbed the bank?

BAIRD: Yes, they caught the a, eventually they caught the people who robbed the bank and killed the night watchman. And I don't know. I can't remember what the results were in th—, when he was tried. But a, the City Marshal didn't carry a gun.

LENDLE: The, the a, person who was shot. The marshal who was shot didn't carry a gun?

BAIRD: Yes. He di—, these night watchman's, he carried a gun.

LENDLE: Oh. I see.

BAIRD: But the day, the City Marshal didn't carry a gun. His job was to wander up and down the street and a, his check and make sure things were going smoothly.

LENDLE: What were things like? I'm thinking as you described Tempe. What were things like, like on a Saturday in Tempe in the thirties?

BAIRD: In the thirties? Well the big attraction was the show. Movies. A, at what time, at one time on the corner of Maple and Second Street they had what they called the Tropical Gardens. It was a large outdoor a, thing where you could have dancing parties. I remember our junior-senior prom was down there because it would seat a lot of, of people and, and a, a, then the left you a little dancing room. But a, they'd run a lot of people did ... of course when the pool was open then a, they'd go, go swimming down to the beach. And it was a big, had a, a, patrons from all over the Valley. There were Tempe Beach Swimming Pool, there was one at Joyland a, a, near a, Thirty-sixth, Thirty-Sixth Street and Van Buren, and Riverside Pool which was south along the riverbank under the bridge in the a, Central Avenue.

LENDLE: When you're saying "pools" you mean regular pools?

BAIRD: Regular large swimming pools.

LENDLE: When you say "beach" then, was there a beach?

BAIRD: That wa—, that was the name of it, Tempe Beach.

LENDLE: I see.

BAIRD: Wasn't any sand around but a, people they was just they — incidentally the Tempe Beach was built by the city, people that lived in the city, they sold bonds to raise money and a lot of the work, a lot of the work was done by the people. I remember my Uncle Bob had the ranch out on a, East Broadway. Brought his Fresno in. Now a Fresno was a mule or a horse drawn scraper like a like a bulldozer and you had a long handle and you pushed the handle down to get the .... and you dig out the dirt, then you'd carry it out where they were dumping it and a, you'd raise it up and that thing'd dump and they'd go back for another load.

LENDLE: Wou—, Could one person manage that?

BAIRD: One person could handle it. And it was a, that's how that excavated with the harrows. And a, then they hired a man who supervised the construction. Made sure the cement was proper _______ cement was mixed a, by the citizens. Call them citizen workers and a, we had some nationally recognized swimming meets here. I remember one year we had the junior Olympics here, junior nationals here.

LENDLE: When was that?

BAIRD: I can't tell you. I don't remember that well. But we had a, people in our home. Two or three or four, very, three or four nationally recognized people. Nationally recognized divers, and a, the pool was fifty five yards long so they put a bulkhead in at one, at the shallow end so it cut it down to fifty yards. Later on they made that bulkhead permanent. And a, the city always had a good swimming teams, diving teams.

LENDLE: Who organized the work on the swimming pool? Was it a civic club?

BAIRD: It was the Tempe Civic Club. Now I don't know who was in charge of, it was a big club. But they were the ones that ramrodded the a, event.

LENDLE: Hum.

BAIRD: It was a matter of city pride that a, we had the best swimming pool in the Valley. And a, on the school's, school year had a large number of kids who were—I mean their annual Ditch Day. The seniors had what they called Ditch Day and a, lot of them came down to Tempe Beach.

LENDLE: So it was a very popular place?

BAIRD: Very, very popular place. Yes ma'am.

LENDLE: Hum.

BAIRD: And we didn't have a, at that time we didn't have a entrance. You walked in. Walked over to the gentleman that was in charge. Paid him their ten cents or fifteen cents. The, he, he, this old gentlemen had a pretty good idea who had paid and didn't pay.

LENDLE: Were there any other activities that a, young people enjoyed, particularly?

BAIRD: Oh, in those years I, I can't remember right now. No. Later on, my younger brother and his friends used to go what they called a, surfing. It wasn't called surfing in those days, but they had a board. To go out to these water usage canals, drive a car along the edge with a long rope attached to this board and they'd go roaring down the canal.

LENDLE: The canals as they are today?

BAIRD: Yes. Now, of course, you can't get on it. This side of the canal. And I think it's probably one of the reasons.

LENDLE: Were there some problems with that?

BAIRD: Not if they, got, didn't get caught. They got caught they had to get off between .... They did a pretty good job of hiding.

LENDLE: Nobody was hurt? No injuries?

BAIRD: Nobody was hurt. The a, most popular place was on Broa—, where the canal crosses Broadway and they'd go south on the ....

LENDLE: So this would be like a, teenagers?

BAIRD: Teenagers right now.

LENDLE: Uh huh. Any other things you can think of that a, young people enjoyed?

BAIRD: Like I say, they didn't have any dance halls 'cept the Tropical Inn at the time. But a, I remember going on several, during the winter going on hikes with a crowd of people my age. We'd a, before the a, fish hatching, fish hatcheries, built out on Papago, where the zoo is now, why we used to climb the a—, those granite rocks out there with no problems. We always wore our tennis shoes, never hard soles and a, but a, one of the other places where people, kids liked to go was the a, what they call it the flume. Which is, crosses the, a, it goes down to forebay a, where there was a pool and we used to ride the flume down to forebay. Now fourbay was where the water went underground. Went down to a, a park land. It's still, it's still there. It's on the a, south side of a, Van Buren. Apache. That area.

LENDLE: Okay. So that, is that still in Tempe or is that just over the line?

BAIRD: That's still in Tempe.

LENDLE: Still in Tempe.

BAIRD: Tempe a, goes, the line is drawn along the z—, zoo line is in Phoenix. Line is drawn there. The a, Rolling Hills Golf Course is in Tempe. It takes in Project Drive and a, no it doesn't take in Project Drive. The old Legend City down to Fifty-Second Street. Van Buren to go across it to, to a, a, Project Drive and then the a, Tempe Muni—, I mean Phoenix Municipal Stadium is in Phoenix, but the surrounding area is in Tempe. Now where the Water User big building their expansion on the Legend City side, that's in Tempe.

LENDLE: Okay.

BAIRD: We used to go fishing 'cause there was always water in the river. And we had a little stony a, projection that had a, and a, and we'd fish in that deep pond, where you're down to, under the Tempe, old Tempe bridge, there was a nice deep pond there. Go fishing.

LENDLE: What kind of fish would you catch?

BAIRD: Oh, catfish a, a, some perch, a, lot of carp. Of course the carp is very, very bony so we used to throw 'them back, we didn't, let somebody else have the fun. But a, where the canal starts again at the, when the water comes out of the pipeline on the south side. That canal had, used to have a lot of fish, too. We'd fish and occasionally go swimming. It was frowned upon, but we'd still slip away with our shorts on, and go swimming.

LENDLE: Were there any a, a, were there any swimming accidents or anything like that along the river?

BAIRD: No.

LENDLE; People knew how to swim pretty well?

BAIRD: People knew how to swim pretty well, or somebody in the party knew how to swim very well.

LENDLE: Ah huh.

BAIRD: The Tempe Beach went, Pd say at least forty, forty-five years without a, drowning. And then a soldier—when they were draining the pool, they drained it from one outlet on, which provided great suction—he went down to fool around and got trapped and that's the only fatality they've ever had at Tempe Beach. Of course, they've closed the pool now. But a, that's the only fatality I know of in the a ... now that doesn't take into account the people who would fall into the canal accidentally. Or I don't remember of any of those happening in the Tempe area. A lot of 'them happened in Phoenix where the, where the bigger canals were.

LENDLE: Okay. I was just thinking of some of the things that you've talked about so far. When you were talking about the a, Tempe Training School, and a, you said that a, "That was one of the few places where the Mexican children could go to."

BAIRD: Well, the a, there was the only school in Tempe where the Mexicans were welcome.

LENDLE: They'd had their own school, too though?

BAIRD: Had their own school. Yes. [If] they didn't want to go to the Training School, why they went to the Mexican School.

LENDLE: How did the kids get along at the Training School?

BAIRD: Well. We never had problems. I still got scars on my shins from playing soccer, 'cause the a, there were those who would a, go down to the blacksmith's shop and get a, or the hardware and get a piece of sheet metal and make caps to go over their shoe toes. You were caught on the ground, they were severely disciplined, but a, we didn't, there weren't any a, racial a, or incidences that I can think, ever think of. They were just like the rest of us and a ....

LENDLE: And the parents? How did they get along?

BAIRD: No problems at all.

LENDLE: Ah huh. Okay.

BAIRD: The a, surprising, the teachers at the Mexican School fought strongly against the abandonment of the Mexican School. They felt that the kids couldn't get a good education mixed in with the others. But it worked out fine. We didn't have a ....

LENDLE: Were there language problems?

BAIRD: No. I'm sure they would have language problems, but most of the Mexicans in the area were bilingual.

LENDLE: So they'd been living there for a period of time?

BAIRD: Yes. Most of them lived in there quite a while. And, and a, we had some very fine Mexican families in town. The Celeyas were one. A, Ophelia Celeya, Celeya is now in her late nineties. She worked at the a, _________ laboratory on [Van Ness] and Peach Tree or University for years and years and years. There were, at one time we had a town band and I think at least fifty percent of the musicians were Mexicans. To just welcome and pleased to participate.

LENDLE: So some places it was acceptable, some places it wasn't then?

BAIRD: Well, where the city was involved, it was pretty well accepted. Where the school district was involved, it wasn't. After they a, closed the Mexican School we didn't have any major problems down in the Tenth Street School.

LENDLE: Did any of the a, people from the Mexican community run for offices? A, a, ....

BAIRD: No.

LENDLE: Okay.

BAIRD: They a, realized the wouldn't have a chance. Later on of course, we've had many people running for offices. The present a, postmaster was a councilman before he a, was appointed postmaster. But it was pretty much a, a, a racist situation. The Mexicans voted for the Mexicans, the whites voted for the whites. But they say, they had enough votes to elect one man.

LENDLE: Sure.

BAIRD: He was a good councilman.

LENDLE: And fairly well accepted then?

BAIRD: Yes, very. No, no problems at all. He was a good councilman. A lot of people objected to one of his campaign utterances which he repeated time. "It's a long time since the Mexicans had representation, representation on the council. Now they'll have representation. I will represent the Mexicans of Tempe." He now meant that as well as the others, but, like I say he was well enough honored where he was elected and did a good job.

LENDLE: And when would that have been generally? Was that in the thirties or...

BAIRD: No. That'd be in the sixties, I think.

LENDLE: Sixties. Okay. Yeah.

BAIRD: Or even seventies. I don't know.

LENDLE: And when was the Mexican School closed? Do you know?

BAIRD: Some time in the forties. If I'm not mistaken.

LENDLE: Forties. Okay. Yeah.

BAIRD: Or was the early thirties. I don't know.

END SIDE THREE

BEGIN SIDE FOUR

LENDLE: A, Mr. Baird, we were just talking, a, before the camera came on again, about the Depression and how it affected a, the City of Tempe and the people. Could you share some memories?

BAIRD: I think it was pretty much like everything else. For example, my Dad was Postmaster at the time. In nineteen thirty-one. The Depression was in thirty-two, or twenty-nine they hit. It hit hard. It hit the East area, but it hit the Tempe area and it stayed _________. Well, my dad's salary was cut from twelve __________ dollars to a hundred and fifty dollars in nineteen thirty-two. Then down to a hundred and thirty-five dollars in nineteen thirty-three. And somehow it was the same story a, everywhere. We had our unemployed. The city had several a, WPA projects.

LENDLE: What kind of projects were they?

BAIRD: Well, painting streets generally. There were several WPA projects in the, the University. In fact, memorial activity ________ was built by WPA labor. It's an adobe. They made the adobe bricks. They put 'them up and then they stained and finished them, but a, building was the biggest WPA, and they paved an awful lot of streets. Ash and Maple were paved. East, East Sixth. First and Sixth Streets, I don't know whether they were paved or whether they were re-paved. But Ash and Myrtle from the bridge south were paved. And a, 'course they could work seventy hours a month and earn ninety dollars. That was the maximum they could earn. It gives you an idea of how—they were tickled enough to get that. 'Cause you could exist on forty-five, forty, a, let's see, ninety dollars a, a, a month or a, twenty-five dollar, twenty-one twenty-five dollars a week. And a... [interruption] Another WPA project was the stone wall around a, Tempe Beach. And they built terraces, stone wall, wall terraces about, time on the river bottom. But people didn't live high on the hog, but they existed.

LENDLE: Did, was there a lot of community spirit in helping each other in those times?

BAIRD: I'm afraid I don't remember in that. A, some of the merchants had to be hardnosed and cut people off when they didn't pay their bills 'cause you couldn't afford to sit here and feed the town.

LENDLE: How about leisure time? What did people do then for enjoyment?

BAIRD: Well, they'd picnic out in the a, desert. A, some hiking. Very little. Went swimming at the beach. A, went fishing in the river a, or the canal because there was a constant stream of water in the a, river at that time. The river'd come from _____ river's then up to Hayden come down to Rural and start to curve south. And it would curve south at the north end of the football stadium. Then come out and go around the Promontory Rock and on down to the a, north end of the Tempe Bridge. And there was a, a family named Goodrich, lived there. And a, and she was employed by the Salt River Pro—, Water User's Association to measure the flow of the stream right there at that spot.

LENDLE: Why was that? Why were they measuring the flow?

BAIRD: They wanted to see how much water they were losing. They a, created a, a pump that reached down into the river water and pump water up for their garden. I remember that, sitting on that stone, like a fence or projection.

LENDLE: And so they had their own pump that was separate from the city pumps?

BAIRD: Well, it's, that was, that was they didn't use that for drinking water. The city had a long line under the old Tempe bridge to there. Yeah. 'Cause that Wilkes and all lived on a house across the river. The Whites lived in the big house at the, just was torn down. And a, then they couldn't, they were all served with Tempe water.

LENDLE: Well, we were talking about water before it came along in pumps. And you were telling me something about dealing with the alkalinity in the soil.

BAIRD: Yeah.

LENDLE: Could you share that again?

BAIRD: Certainly. Ill, the area, it was south of Thirteenth Street and a, out that way.

LENDLE: Well just wait for . . . [background noise] We were just talking about the alkalinity.

BAIRD: Yeah. Now this area where we're now south of Thirteenth to Broadway was a, alkali flat. The ground on the top of it was almost white. It was white, you know, over the places and this alkaline substance, a, there was very little that could grow. Some salt cedar some a, creosote bush, that sort of thing. But generally there wasn't anything that could grow in it. Well a, the a grapefruit producers, well they established a juicing plant down on the corner of Eighth Street, or H Street and the railroad tracks. And they would take the culled grapefruit, run through the juicer. They'd put the juice in cans. Lot went into the armed services. A lot of it was, was sold to a, wholesalers. And they'd dump the rinds on this alkaline flat. And that helped acidize some of this area. Same time the water users had pumps on the corner of a, the railroad tracks and Broadway. In this valley west, it also were pumping. A mile south and a mile west also were pumping constantly. And so the water table dropped and eventually, why a, it made the area habitable.

LENDLE: A, okay, okay, and you mentioned that nobody complained at all about all the grapefruit?

BAIRD: Well, you see, there wasn't anybody living nearby. So there weren't any complaints. The a, flies were bad there. But a ....

LENDLE: Okay.

BAIRD: Nothing but _______. There wasn't any residences south of Thirteenth Street. There was a farmer's house on Thirteenth a, but a very little north of there except one farmer. Well this didn't really create a public nuisance.

LENDLE: Okay. Well. You've shared a lot of very interesting information with us about the City of Tempo. I wonder are there any other things you'd like to share that we haven't talked about, any memories, stories about Tempe?

BAIRD: Well I, I, I don't have anything I can a, think of right now. I told you a, felt very badly that the City of Tempo has nothing to commemorate my Dad's existence here.

LENDLE: Okay. Well, we really do appreciate all the information you have shared...

BAIRD: Well I I'm glad to...

LENDLE: ...with us, and...

BAIRD: ...be able to say what I...

LENDLE: It's been very enjoyable.

BAIRD: ...have. And I think it's a wonderful project. I really do.

LENDLE: Well. Okay.

BAIRD: If they'd had this going fifteen twenty years ago, think of th--, what the pioneers could a...

LENDLE: A, capture many, many a, stories and a lot of good, good information.

BAIRD: Um hum.

LENDLE: Right. Well I'd like to thank you very much and I think a, well finish with that today.

BAIRD: 'Preciate that.

LENDLE: Um hum. My name is Janet Lendle and our narrator today is Mr. Buddy Baird. And this interview has been part of the Tempe Oral History Project. The date is August the sixth, nineteen eighty-seven and we're located today at the house of Mr. Baird which is at Five Twenty-eight West Seventeenth Place in Tempe.

END SIDE FOUR

END OF INTERVIEW