Tempe Historical Museum Oral Histories

Pedro N. "Pete Estrada was born in Tempe on May 13, 1891. Along with his brother, Ramon, he owned several businesses on Mill Avenue, including the Estrada Brothers Grocery, a barber shop, a restaurant, and a pool hall. In 1923, he was hired as a court interpreter for Maricopa County Superior Court. He assumed responsibility for maintaining the court's small law library, and eventually his title was changed to County Law Librarian. He retired in 1968, ending a 45-year career with the Maricopa County Superior Court. In 1915, he helped organize Hispanic residents of Tempe to form Lodge No. 1 of the Liga Protectora Latina. He was also actively involved with the Arizona Democratic Party and the Alianza Hispano-Americana for the next 50 years.

In this interview, Pete Estrada talks about the building of St. Mary's Catholic Church in Tempe in 1902. Though he was just a child, he helped with making the bricks for the church.

ESTRADA: I am.

HARTER: When were you born?

ESTRADA: May 13, 1891.

HARTER: And you were born over near where the stadium is now?

ESTRADA: Just below the stadium.

HARTER: You were telling me that there used to be a cemetery there.

ESTRADA: Yes ma'am, that's right.

HARTER: You remember playing around there when you were a child?

ESTRADA: Yes, I remember playing around there.

HARTER: And there was a Catholic church there, too, right at the foot of the butte? Was there?

ESTRADA: Yes, there was.

HARTER: The original Catholic church.

ESTRADA: The original. That's where I made my First Communion, they call it. There was a Catholic school there, too.

HARTER: I heard that two sisters ran that school, is that correct?

ESTRADA: That's right. My wife worked with them. At that time she was about ten, twelve years old.

HARTER: Mr. Estrada, what was your wife's name when she was a girl?

ESTRADA: Rita Gonzales.

HARTER: And Mr. Estrada, you say your father was born in Florence?

ESTRADA: Florence, Arizona.

HARTER: You don't know just when he was born?

ESTRADA: I do not know.

HARTER: Do you know how old he was when YOU were born?

ESTRADA: He must have been 19 or 20 years old.

HARTER: When you were born?

ESTRADA: Uh-huh.

HARTER: Mr. Estrada, I have heard that you had something to do with the building of the brick Catholic church that is still on the corner of University and College Avenue in Tempe.

ESTRADA: Yes, ma'am.

HARTER: Can you tell us about that?

ESTRADA: Well, it's a long story.

HARTER: Fine.

ESTRADA: Way back in 1902, when the people around Tempe, Mexicans and Americans, we used to call 'em, the father -- we had a father that came from Germany. In other words, he had a German name. We used to call him Safarena -- something like that. That's all I can tell you. So the early church there by the Buttes was getting too small for the Catholic. . . .

HARTER: For the congregation?

ESTRADA: For the congregation, for both the Mexicans and the American people. So the father decided to build a new church. As I understood it afterwards, he had already bought the land to build a new church, which is right there on the corner of Eighth Street and. . . .

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: College Avenue.

ESTRADA: College Avenue. And at that time, that's where the first Tempe Normal football team had their diamond.

HARTER: Oh, where the church is now?

ESTRADA: Oh, yes.

HARTER: Well, I never heard that before!

ESTRADA: _________. So when the father decided to build a new church, there were not very many American Catholics at that time. But there were a lot of Mexicans already. So at that time, my family -- that is, my father and my mother, brothers and sisters -- were living right close to the old church by the buttes at that time. So the father. . . . Am I making it too. . . .

HARTER: Go ahead, that's fine.

ESTRADA: The father became very friendly with my mother and father, because he was boarding with one of our best friends there around the neighborhood. They used to be right there by the canal, just about a block from where we used to live. So the father became very well acquainted with my family. When he decided to build this new church, he contacted all the congregation -- Americans, Mexicans -- and asked for their help, 'cause the church did not have any money. He had to have some money and a lot of help to build this new church. So finally they got together, had a meeting, and the leading Mexican men around, and the Americans. And they decided they were going to do all they possibly could to help the father build this new church. There were only a few American Catholic families here at the time. I remember that very well. But nevertheless, they agreed with the father to start to build a new church. The Americans that I remember, families that took a leading part, an active part, in raising the money to build this church, the first one was Mr. John Curry.

HARTER: How do you spell it?

ESTRADA: C-U-R-R-Y.

HARTER: Yes, John Curry.

ESTRADA: Yes, John Curry. And there's another family at that time that had a store there in Tempe on Mill Avenue. Their names were Hodnett. There were other families, like the Millers -- Winchester Miller -- I mean, his wife. And the Priests. . . . You remember the Priests don't you?

ESTRADA: A family by the name of Mr. Priest and his family.

HARTER: Mr. Estrada, that Priest family was the . . . that's the one that Priest Road is named after, isn't it?

ESTRADA: That's right.

HARTER: And they had a ranch out there where Priest Road goes past now?

ESTRADA: That's right. Right on the corner of University Drive now, and Priest Road, is where the ranch was.

HARTER: Now, you were saying there were very few American Catholics at that time, and so that church was mostly built by the Mexican families -- not only money, but labor as well -- is that right?

ESTRADA: Yes.

HARTER: Tell us the part YOU had in it.

ESTRADA: Well, at that time I was about twelve years old, and I had a brother, my oldest brother Ray. He was about close to 14 years old. And then when the father came over to our house and asked my mother if we could help when they started making those bricks. (aside about tape) So my mother told the father that I and Ray, my brother, could help, for him to use us whatever help we could give to him to make the bricks for the new church. So. . . .

HARTER: So how did you make them?

ESTRADA: That's a long story! (tape turned off and on)

HARTER: Mr. Estrada, you were telling me that the father went to Tucson where he got an expert brick mason.

ESTRADA: Brick layer.

HARTER: Can you tell us about that man?

ESTRADA: Well, I remember the father getting in touch with this young man in Tucson who had recently been married. He agreed with the father to come over and help him out here with his church here. So after the father came back, as soon as he got back here to Tempe, he started looking for a place to have this man, Mr. Navarro, stay here and live.

So after Mr. Navarro came here, right away he started working at the place where the bricks were to be made.

HARTER: Was that the same place where they built the church?

ESTRADA: No, no!

HARTER: How far away was it?

ESTRADA: Oh, about two miles.

HARTER: About two miles. Okay, you said he made a sort of a mill, so that you could make the bricks very fast. Can you explain that?

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: To mix the mud.

HARTER: To mix the mud.

ESTRADA: Well, I'll try to explain it the best I can. He first built a hole, a round hole, maybe, say, ten, twelve feet wide. And then they set up some kind of a mill.

HARTER: And that mill was powered by a horse?

ESTRADA: By a horse, yes.

HARTER: Would somebody lead the horse around?

ESTRADA: Lead him first, and then he'd do it by himself. And then, as I remember, we never -- at least I never had that kind of experience -- but I saw where they started putting that dirt down in that hole. And the man was there, ready, in the hole, kind of piling up the dirt in one place. And then after they had enough dirt in the hole, they put the water in there, and then they had kind of a . . . some kind of a mixer. When they started the horse, the mixer would turn around. And a man was always ready there to watch when the mud would be ready to push it into the conveyor so it would come to where Mr. Navarro, which was a brick cutter, we used to call him -- brick cutter. And then he had the molds all ready there, and all he had to do was just put the mud in those forms. And then he had a kind of a knife made out of just wire. And that's. . . .

HARTER: Cut the mud off square?

ESTRADA: That's why they used to call him a brick cutter, because he'd cut the mud from the top, and that would level it enough to take it over to where he was gonna lay 'em down to dry 'em out.

HARTER: Now, was there something underneath the form so that you could carry it without the mud dropping out?

ESTRADA: Oh, yeah, naturally.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: They'd turn 'em upside down.

HARTER: I've seen adobe forms, and they were open. They made 'em right on the dirt.

ESTRADA: That's what I was gonna tell you. (aside about tape) Sure, that's the way they make the adobes, of the brick dough.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Now, what happened to those bricks after he got one filled?

HARTER: Then the boys would take them and carry them over where they could turn them over, is that right?

ESTRADA: Oh, yes. Then us boys -- there were four of us -- we were always ready there, because we'd have quite a ways to run. We had to run in order to come back as soon as possible. So we'd run over there to lay 'em on the ground to dry out.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Take the form back.

ESTRADA: In lines. Everything had to be in lines. So we'd run over there and turn 'em over and come back running to where the mill was, where the brick cutter was.

HARTER: And it took four boys to keep the cutter busy, is that it?

ESTRADA: Oh, absolutely, yes.

HARTER: He must have been very fast.

ESTRADA: Oh, he was fast!

HARTER: Do you remember how long it took the bricks to dry before they were fired?

ESTRADA: Well, it all depended on the weather. If it was a hot day, it wouldn't take very long. But when winter comes, it takes a little longer.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Mr. Estrada, what did you and your brothers and the other boys do about helping with the firing of the bricks?

ESTRADA: Well, when the man in charge, who was Mr. Navarro, he decided it was time, that we had enough bricks already dried out, to be setting them up to burn 'em up. In other words, some of the boys working there, and myself and my brother, when we were not laying bricks, we had to go over there -- it was right close to where we were laying the brick -- to set up the bricks to be burned up.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Had to make a kiln or an oven?

ESTRADA: Had to make a kiln, and as tall and as high, too.

HARTER: You made that out of bricks?

ESTRADA: We had to, because that's why you make the kiln there. And then after everything was ready. . . . I don't remember how high we run those kilns up. Nevertheless, I guess the regular way to do it was -- Mr. Navarro told us -- and it was high enough or low enough to start setting the fire on both sides. We'd have to put in the wood from BOTH sides.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Had two fire holes, then?

ESTRADA: That's right, two fire holes, because it was about as wide as from there to here.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: About twelve feet wide, maybe.

HARTER: More than that?

ESTRADA: More than that.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Well, 14.

HARTER: That must have taken a lot of wood.

ESTRADA: When we made this kiln that you call it. . . . Have you seen one?

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Yeah, I've seen kilns.

ESTRADA: Oh, you HAVE seen them. Well, you know how they are. The one that we made here, as Mr. Navarro wanted it, he wanted it to have two places . . . UNIDENTIFIED MAN: To put the wood?

ESTRADA: . . . to put the wood.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: What was your job? Bringing the wood and keeping the fire going? Or putting in the bricks?

ESTRADA: I and my brother used to do everything -- anything that was needed to be done.

HARTER: Twelve and 14 years old!

ESTRADA: As much as we could, anyway.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: You had to keep this going, it had to be burned day and night?

ESTRADA: Day and night. That's what I was going to tell you. Men did that too -- not only boys. Probably four grown men that used to work there, too. When they were not busy where they were doing what they had to do in the making of the bricks, they had to come over here and help.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Help with the burning of the bricks.

ESTRADA: The burning of the kiln, the wood. I and my brother. . . . The day . . . they started the fire in the morning as I remember. Mr. Navarro himself, he got one or two of the boys to take care of the fire all day long. The father used to come there every evening. So that evening the father came over, and the fire was already started and going. And then Mr. Navarro told the father that he needed two boys to watch that fire die -- keep on putting the wood in. So the father then asked my brother, Ray, to go home and tell my mother, and get some lunch, that they had to stay over there all night -- me and my brother Ray. So that's what we did. We just walked over to the house -- not very far, you know -- and told our mother what the father had said. And she gave [us] a little lunch, [and we] took it over there. We got there just about sundown, just about time to relieve the other boys over there. So I and my brother stayed up all night.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: To fire the kiln.

ESTRADA: Kept that up until the bricks were done. And then after the bricks were done, we had to start piling them up around.

HARTER: The finished ones?

ESTRADA: The finished ones -- stacked them up there -- because they were not ready with the church yet.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: To use them.

ESTRADA: To use them. Or no money, I don't know. ____________. But after they got all the material there to start putting up the walls for the church, then my brother and I used to -- they gave us a wagon, to load it up. . . .

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Take them over to the church site?

ESTRADA: Where they're gonna start building the church.

HARTER: With boy power, not horse power?

ESTRADA: No, we had a wagon. My brother drove the team, you see. And I went with him, and then we go over there. It wasn't hard work to get 'em down, with everybody there.

HARTER: And you'd stack 'em up over there.

ESTRADA: We'd stacked 'em up over there. They're gonna start building up the walls.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Mr. Estrada, do you think that that church was pretty well built? It was done mostly by local labor, wasn't it?

ESTRADA: Yes, I think so. Most of the people that worked on that church were local people. They were very . . . in other words, they were good working men.

HARTER: Skilled?

ESTRADA: Skilled. They knew what they were doing, because they had experience. Most of 'em had come to Tempe before my time, from Mexico.

HARTER: Was that on account of the Revolution?

ESTRADA: On account of the Revolution, that they left over there -- like most of them did here, the old-time Mexicans. They landed here in Tempe, they stayed here. And at that time, the church question came up, they were very willing to help -- donate part of their time. Maybe they got a little money, but I don't know about that. But anyway, most of them were good carpenters, brick layers. . . .

HARTER: And also good Catholics.

ESTRADA: Oh, yeah, good Catholics. And I think there was one expert brick layer that the father got to come from Phoenix, which is the one that built the church in Phoenix.

HARTER: The St. Mary's Church.

ESTRADA: The church on Ninth Street and Washington [Immaculate Heart Church].

END OF INTERVIEW